JFK Pontiac ambulance up for auction

Someone else mentioned the lettering on the front doors, so I may be mentioning something already covered... but if you compare the letter/number sizing on the good photo of the car (with Jackie touching the door to get in) with the size of the lettering of the final photo of the car in the Barrett Jackson photos... the lettering is obviously much larger on the car now. Measuring from the bottom of the car it is easy to see...
But, the Navy could have repainted/relettered at some point... but the current owner states "unrestored" for his part...
 
on that theme. here is one more thing your fighting . on the pictures of the 64s posted anyone notice the difference in two cars same year same equipment same lettering. look at the the one showing the rear view. this is what I was saying someone serviced this car drove it daily for there tour of duty at Bethesda. they know what was different on the car then the rest. they were delivered to the motor pool and lettered there the tags were put on there. different cars at different station would have different signs inside or signs in different place. the no smoking or O2 come to mind. it would all depend on who got sent out to do it. anyone with a fleet of the same cars knows each of them this way. there is something different on them all.
 

Attachments

  • 1964 superior military pon 5.jpg
    1964 superior military pon 5.jpg
    49 KB · Views: 896
Update with video...

Car is at the auction park. Here is a video segment of it featured on the news, with Steve talking about it and how they deduced it was the original car:

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/offbeat/jfk-ambulance-barrett-jackson-auction-1-6-2011

Here are a couple screen grabs I made of the tags on it.

jfktag1.jpg


jfktag2.jpg


I noticed the VIN tag is held on with screws, not rivets. Same thing with the Navy ID tag. Not sure if that was common practice with the Navy tag, but seems suspect with the VIN. I'd like to see another VIN number somewhere else, although that could probably be faked too.
 
so far all they have proved is that gsa bought a 63 car with that gm vin number and JFK was carried off in a ambulance with that navy number in smaller print on the door. good eye there Kent. the front doors and the rear door would have been stenciled at the same time with the same stencil. the shot they show of flag draped coffin must be from the trip from the hospital back to the white house. I'm looking at all these pictures and they show only the right side of the car. all the photos taken that day show the left. in this last video the left door is open all the time so you can't compare the lettering. and no one has a clear pictures of the navy tag. that vin would have been on with screws but there is more places it would be. I don't think GSA would have the car listed with the gm vin but they would have used the shorter superior vin number. because that's the way the aftermarket company sold it titled with there vin number. which would be the vin of the rebuilt car. not the gm number. but it gets more intresting
 

Attachments

  • 1963 jfk 9.JPG
    1963 jfk 9.JPG
    16.7 KB · Views: 868
  • 1963 jfk 11.JPG
    1963 jfk 11.JPG
    18.2 KB · Views: 864
JFK Vehichles

I'm just hoping the Yat Ming/ Road Signature Co. is busy in the back wings working on a 1:24 scale model of the 1964 Miller/Meteror Combination AND the 1963 Superior Pontiac Gov. Ambulace to be added to their Presidential Series! I would think those two models would be highly sought after by Model Collectors.
 
one more brain f--t before we duck out of here. that GM tag should be Stainless Steel and not painted. now it was a government contract and superior was noted to being sloppy. if they did paint over the tag rather then remove and replace like they did all there other cars then its a different color underneath. the cars were not ordered Haze Gray. you can make out the navy numbers on the brass tag. but you can't see the superior line number. lets look at at a few more I have pictures off. you decide it you can mate up the gm vin with the navy number. in all of these the only car using the manufacturer number not the after market number is ths 60 ford station wagon. it was only a converted stock wagon not a rebuilt car.
 

Attachments

  • 1951 navy tag on a superior.jpg
    1951 navy tag on a superior.jpg
    82.5 KB · Views: 845
  • 1959 USAF cornet military tag.jpg
    1959 USAF cornet military tag.jpg
    76.3 KB · Views: 841
  • 1963 Sup Pont tag.jpg
    1963 Sup Pont tag.jpg
    69.2 KB · Views: 834
  • 1970 GSA tagg ford wagon..jpg
    1970 GSA tagg ford wagon..jpg
    68.1 KB · Views: 832
  • 1972 army CB glove box tag 1.JPG
    1972 army CB glove box tag 1.JPG
    71.3 KB · Views: 833
I doubt there's anything any of us can do to prove or disprove its authenticity without seeing it in person. From what I can see of the two tags they seem to match.

Unfortunately the closest person that has a chance to check it out in person is someone who has fallen out of favor with the PCS...
 
The GM serial number tags were spot riveted onto the body, and the only ones that were riveted using a Rosette rivet were those for overseas delivery, more commonly known as knock downed and crated cars. I don't believe that this car falls into that category. I also have seen many early 1960's Superior GM ambulances and hearses, and I don't ever remember seeing one with a painted serial number tag. I also know that there is a person that is very reputable that will make a replacement serial number tag if yours is missing, but he requires a lot of proof before make one for you. His are made of highly polished aluminum, and the original factory tags are made of stainless steel. That is the only difference and you cannot tell the difference visually. It is possible that he might have been duped into making one for this car????????? I just can't answer that question..
 
Well being here in the Phoenix area and having watched many of Speed's productions of the Scottsdale and other B-J auctions and their reputation I'm folding my cards and saying it's authentic.

I agree it's one of one in a million chances that some thing pops up after so many years without having an easily traceable history. :my2cents:
 
I'm prepared to give the benifit of the doubt either way, but like I sid there are some things I'd like to see in person, or have someone to see in person to be sure. Just because it is described as "original and unrestored" doesn't mean it didn't have some touching up, possibly even major touching up, in the Navy. Just looking at the pictures Russell posted of the 64's, I see one with a cranked-up bumper that looks like it was towed wrong by the motor pool. It could have been repainted in part or in whole, but the VIN tag is odd to me. I can see there being screws if it was repainted and they wanted to not paint the VIN tag, or I can see the tag being painted over and remain riveted on, but why both?

If it was sold at government auction that would explain the difference in number sizes, since they were probably removed for auction, but it would also imply that someone somewhere along the line knew what they had and restored it accordingly, so it seems odd that word would only come out now?

The Navy ID plate lists an "Engine Serial Number" which is the same, at least in part, as the VIN tag. If the car is indeed original and never had the engine out or worked on, this number SHOULD still be stamped into the engine block, although certain circumstances might preclude it from being there. This could be faked too (anything can, really) but it would help the case if it were there. Same story for the frame serial number.

If this is Bobb Kosoff's car redone it doesn't necessarily mean it is a fake, just that there may be more proof now that it is the real thing. As I understand it, he thought his car was the "real" one for a while, then apparently admitted at some point it was "a really good clone". It's possible that enough people put doubt in his mind that he unconvinced himself that his car was the real one, sold it, and now under closer examination it turns out it is indeed the real one? That's if this is even the same car, which no one on this board is sure of. I don't know, just thinking out loud to stimulate discussion...
 
Paul Steinberg said:
I also have seen many early 1960's Superior GM ambulances and hearses, and I don't ever remember seeing one with a painted serial number tag.
Click to expand...

This raises an interesting question about the production of pro cars. Since the cowl would have been delivered by GM, you would assume it would have the VIN tag already on the door jamb. Once the car was built to spec, it would have been painted to the buyers specifications. What if the commercial chassis cowl was not the color the buyer wanted? Would the tag be painted over? Or was the tag delivered unmounted to the ambulance builder and applied by them? It would seem like there would be cases where the final product was not the same color as the cowl was delivered. In that case, for there to not be a painted tag it would either have to be removed and reattached, or applied later?
 
Can anybody shed any light (no pun intended) on the shades used in the car when Kennedy was transported? Looking at the interior pictures of this car, there appear to be none? I don't know if any good pictures of the cars interior from 63 exist, and the television footage is marginal at best, but there are shades in all the windows. Possibly temporary ones?
 
Personally I think now it just boils down that the owner really doesn't give a d@^^n about the car it's self and is just seeing a bunch if $$$$$$$$$$$$$ signs at this point now that B-J has possession of it.
 
Former Secret Service Agent Clint Hill said in the Discovery Channel's "The Kennedy Detail" (scheduled for re-broadcast Wednesday, January 12 at 10 AM) ". . . they broke off the handles of the casket." When the casket is being unloaded from the plane, however, what appears to be a handle can be seen on the left side. On the right side, a man in uniform appears to be holding a handle. Retired Agent Paul Landis said "I helped unloading the casket. The handle I was holding broke, and I was thinking 'What a cheap casket to be bringing the President back in.'"
 
Ted Duncan said:
Former Secret Service Agent Clint Hill said in the Discovery Channel's "The Kennedy Detail" (scheduled for re-broadcast Wednesday, January 12 at 10 AM) ". . . they broke off the handles of the casket." When the casket is being unloaded from the plane, however, what appears to be a handle can be seen on the left side. On the right side, a man in uniform appears to be holding a handle. Retired Agent Paul Landis said "I helped unloading the casket. The handle I was holding broke, and I was thinking 'What a cheap casket to be bringing the President back in.'"
Click to expand...


I was looking at that in the video too, and while there does appear to be a handle on the side facing the camera, it also appears that the man in front on the left goes to grab a handle, then switches his grasp to the bottom of the casket. Kinda hard to tell from the old video footage though.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top