JFK Pontiac ambulance up for auction

All, I received a phone call and, subsequently, an e-mail regarding this from a gentleman named Bob Hoch. I don't know him, and I'm not sure who he is or if he represents someone or an organization relating to this, other than his comment that he is a researcher. Nonetheless, he presents some interesting information that would question the authenticity of the letters presented to document the car.

He certainly wanted to share this with the PCS - he and others presumably are well aware of this website and our discussions here. His original e-mail is to the fellow from Barrett-Jackson

Here is what he sent me in it's entirety (by the way, I consider myself one of many people in PCS who know a great deal about ambulances, but I certainly haven't ever stated or believed that I am "the" expert on such things, that is his wording - I'm flattered but I sincerely learn a great deal from others who know more than I do every day):

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mr. Lichtman -
I found this e-mail address from 2005 a few minutes after I left a
message on your home phone.
As I mentioned, I have some information which I think will interest you
and other members of the PCS forum who have been discussing the JFK-autopsy
ambulance. I was not able to find an e-mail address to use, but I did find
your phone number (along with references to you as *the* expert on old
ambulances).
The information I referred to is appended.
I am cc'ing David Lifton, the JFK-assassination expert I mentioned.
Feel free to share this, but you might want to wait a day or two to
give Mr. Davis a chance to respond first. By all accounts his auction
company wants to do the right thing.
Regards,
Paul Hoch
510-525-1980
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Hoch [mailto:paulHoch@mindspring.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 3:23 PM
To: Steve Davis
Subject: JFK ambulance documents: evidence of inauthenticity

Mr. Davis -
Concerning the 1963 documentation published at
http://www.barrett-jackson.com/media/pressreleases/jfk-binder.pdf:

Adm. Bart Hogan (purportedly the sender of the first letter and the
recipient of the second one) did indeed serve as Surgeon General of the Navy
- but from 1955 to 1961.
He retired from the Navy in 1961.
At the time of the assassination, he was assistant director of the
American Psychiatric Association.

The first letter is on the letterhead of the Surgeon General of the
Navy. No street address is provided (just "Washington"), which suggests to
me that it was a letterhead for internal, not external, use.
The purported reply (which also lacks a full address) refers to Hogan
as the Surgeon General of the Navy.
At the time, that post was held by Adm. Edward C. Kenney.

So the authenticity of the pair of documents is, in my opinion, very
doubtful.
That is, I see no persuasive evidence that ties the VIN and the Naval
registration numbers together.

FYI, I am a JFK-assassination researcher with no interest in the
ambulance itself.
What interested me about the "Hogan" letter was the fact that he was
asking for evidence about the Bethesda ambulance "as part of the
investigation of the President's assassination."
There has been some controversy about the existence of investigations
of the assassination by various military units. There have been plausible
reports about such investigations but the expected documentation has not
surfaced. In the seventies, the House Select Committee on Assassinations
looked into these reports, with limited success.
The events surrounding the autopsy have been a subject of considerable
interest. David Lifton wrote about the apparent use of a "decoy ambulance"
at Bethesda (in his opinion, in the context of a conspiracy).
So it is quite plausible that the Surgeon General's office was looking
into the use of various ambulances on November 22.
Therefore, even after I realized that Adm. Hogan was no longer Surgeon
General, I did not completely dismiss the letters as inauthentic right away.

It is conceivable that in 1963 Adm. Hogan served as a consultant to his
former colleagues.
However, I can see no logical reason for him to write to the
manufacture for information "regarding this vehicle and its' [sic]
manufacture."
(Among other things, the ambulance was right there.)

I hope this information is of use to you.

I would like to share it with the Professional Car Society, where your
message (below) was posted.
I could not immediately find an e-mail address for Dwayne Brooks, so I
would appreciate it if you would forward this to him, perhaps after you have
had a chance to digest my analysis.


With best regards,

Paul Hoch
PaulHoch@Cal.Berkeley.edu

References:
http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/176/2/155.extract
Admiral Hogan Retired.- Rear Adm. Bartholomew W. Hogan retired after 35
years of service on Feb. 28. He served as surgeon general of the Navy and
chief of the Bureau of Medicine and Surgery for the past 5 years. He has
accepted an appointment as assistant director of the American Psychiatric
Association, Washington, D.C. ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartholomew_W._Hogan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surgeon_General_of_the_United_States_Navy
 
Wowsers!!! Felt like I was reading something off of one of the History Channel shows! Looks like we've had our own following on the subject! Thanks for sharing Steve! And please tell Mr. Hoch thanks for his shared infromation!
 
Steve Davis has replied to Paul Hoch's letter and Steve forewarded me a copy to share with everyone. I do not know Mr. Hoch nor have I ever had any contact with him, but after Googling his name I learned a lot! Paul Hoch is one of the most respected assassination researchers in the U.S. Here is a quote that was an intro into one of his public speeches:
Unlike high-profile conspiracy authors such as Mark Lane, Robert Groden, and David Lifton, Paul Hoch is essentially unknown to the American public. But among the small fraternity of assassination researchers, he is a highly respected figure.
Click to expand...

Just like us, Paul contacted Barrett-Jackson to share information. No one here is trying to corrupt the auction or make anyone look like a bad guy, our discussions have generated alot of information, opinions, and questions. Maybe it's real, maybe it's a clone. We'll probably never know 100% but at any rate this is all very interesting to us because of the ambulance itself. Under the saddest of circumstances this ambulance was put "on center stage" as the world watched one of America's most loved Presidents take his final journey.
Here is Steve Davis's reply to Paul Hoch:

Mr. Hoch,



Thank you for contacting us. We do appreciate hearing from people knowledgeable in a particular field any time we have a unique vehicle like this one consigned to a Barrett-Jackson auction. As you know, I have already had some dialogue with a member of the Professional Car Society concerning this vehicle, and I will be happy to have this reply posted for the group as well.



As you know, there is a great deal of interest surrounding this car, and we are receiving incoming information from all over the world. Our team is working diligently to sift through the information and respond to legitimate inquiries and information in a timely manner. As you can imagine, this is proving to be nearly a full time job for several on our staff!



We will be selling more than 1,200 cars at our 40th anniversary auction next week, and it's important for me to reiterate here that, as an auction company, Barrett-Jackson is not the entity making the representations as to the history or particular provenance of this car. All representations made are those of the consignor who has elected to sell the car at a Barrett-Jackson auction. This is true for every vehicle we sell, and is not a policy made unilaterally by our company but rather an established principle that underlies the nature of any auction business.



With that said, we are obviously giving this particular vehicle a heightened level of scrutiny because of its historical significance and because of the extraordinary level of interest it has generated. We have already far exceeded the usual time and resource allocation for independent review of documentation and physical examination for a single vehicle. I'll take this opportunity to provide an update here for you and the members of the PCS as to the extent of those activities.



The car was delivered to the auction site last week. We performed an initial physical inspection at that time. As has been reported on the news and discussed on the PCS message board, we were pleased to learn that the inspection revealed that the VIN and Naval registration number did match the numbers recited in the documentation provided to us (and I will address your questions about the documentation itself below).



In the days since the car arrived here, we have followed up on several other pieces of information. For example, during the detailing process that takes place prior to auction, we were able to locate and confirm that the engine block does have an engine serial number matching the VIN. With some of the most renowned collector car experts in the world on our team, we are conscientious about every detail of a physical inspection like this -- from the proper location for such numbers to the importance of observing and recording patterns of grease and dirt accumulation that would be consistent with a car of a certain age. There are several other elements of our physical inspection that are ongoing at this time, but this now brings us to a total of four separate locations on the vehicle that have tags or stampings consistent with one another and with the documentation we have reviewed.



As to the documents obtained by the consignor (which have been posted on our website and which have also been discussed on the message board), we are mindful of the fact that these letters came to light through a government information request within the past year and a half. The fact that the numbers listed in the recently discovered letters have been shown to match the numbers that were physically on the car for many years prior to release of the letters is another factor we are taking into consideration (on the other hand, if this had happened the other way around -- that is if the letters had surfaced many years ago and then a car with the same numbers suddenly appeared on the scene -- it might lead to a different conclusion).



Prior to receiving your email, we had also reviewed the timeline relating to the dates of Admiral Hogan's post in the Navy Surgeon General's office. While the "Hogan Letter" is written on letterhead from the Navy Surgeon General's office, we note that he does not sign off in a way that would indicate he is indeed representing himself as holding that post. Rather, he signs off as "Rear Admiral" and appears to merely be making the inquiry on behalf of the Surgeon General's office. We do not have any reason to believe that such a request was implausible (in fact, members of our own staff who have worked on Capitol Hill have affirmed that it is common practice for multiple representatives of such an office to correspond on official letterhead when they are acting on official business of that office). We are taking some additional steps to review the authenticity of the form of the letterhead, and can, for example, affirm that it was common for federal offices in this era to correspond on letterhead that contained a simple statement of the office at the top rather than a full listing of office address and other contact information as is the practice in the modern world (e.g., "The Surgeon General of the Navy" or "The Secretary of the Navy"). As to the reply from Superior Coach, we note that it addresses Admiral Hogan consistently as "Rear Admiral B.W. Hogan" and then references the office in its formal capacity as "Surgeon General of the Navy." We do not find this pattern to be inconsistent with other historical documents we have reviewed from this era.



We also have considered the issue of why the Navy might be contacting Superior for information when the Navy had the ambulance in its possession. While the Navy could obviously perform a physical inspection of its own in reference to the markings on the vehicle, what they would not have had without an inquiry to Superior is the confirmation of the contract number and the Navy registration number leaving Superior as matching those that were found on the vehicle itself.



Another factor that has played into our analysis here is the credibility of the consignor of this vehicle. He is a physician and an avid collector, and has gone to extraordinary lengths to complete his own diligence in researching the history of the vehicle. He has also been exceptionally cooperative and responsive as we have addressed various questions with him throughout this process.



Again, I want to reiterate that Barrett-Jackson is not affirmatively making any representations as to the history or particular provenance of this car, and we will be clear about all of these facts with the bidders who register at auction to participate in the sale of this vehicle. What we are trying to do is uphold the high standard we've set for ourselves in following up on legitimate inquiries and questions related to a vehicle as important as the Kennedy ambulance. We are certain we will hear many other questions in the next week as we prepare for the auction sale, and we will consider all of them in due course and will continue to use our best professional judgment in resolving any issues we deem to be material to the representation of the car.



Thank you for contacting us, and thank you for taking an interest in the collector car hobby.



Best regards,



Steve Davis









Steve Davis

President

Barrett-Jackson Auction Company, L.L.C.

7400 E. Monte Cristo

Scottsdale, AZ 85260



P. 480.421.6694
F. 480.421.6697
sdavis@barrett-Jackson.com

www.barrett-jackson.com
Click to expand...
 
I'll be the first to say it.........it's starting to sound like this one may be the "real deal". If nothing else, it's certainly been a very entertaining discussion.
 
Well, having read that, and given the people involved doing the research, I'd say it's time for us to stop being armchair quarterbacks from thousands of miles away and let the experts do their business. It's been fun though.

Final price?

I think it is a more well-known car than the 64, but probably not as nice, and has a less complete documented history. I know it's a wide range, but I say it tops $500,000, but doesn't come as close to a million as the other one did.
 
Kosoff Car?

Todd Merrifield said:
OK, one more post...

Ad for the car offered by Central Valley Classics is still up for the time being (yes I saved all the pictures anyway):

http://www.centralvalleyclassics.com/cars/Pontiac/63superiorpontiacambulance/63superiorpontiacambulance.html

Engine looks different, but it appears to have the same brass tag on the dash.

For better or worse, I'm pretty much convinced this is the same car that is going up for auction.
Click to expand...

This is how I recall the Bobb Kosoff car looking when it "debuted" in Southern California with a RF Fender Mounted Siren, Steady RED Spotlight and the California Firefighter (vanity plates) "63 JFK". He moved from So-Cal to Central California so maybe with are talking about two different Pontiac's? Do forensics on the RF Fender may link the two? (*) Also "K-O's" recollection of Mr. Kosoff years ago was spot on, at least from someone who was a "newbie" to the hobby and just listening from the bleachers at the time. (**) Original So-Cal PCS Charter Member #14 MM
 
"Unlike high-profile conspiracy authors such as Mark Lane, Robert Groden, and David Lifton, Paul Hoch is essentially unknown to the American public. But among the small fraternity of assassination researchers, he is a highly respected figure"

After an internet search based on Paul Hoch's e-mail address, I discovered that he is a graduate of Harvard University, and has been employed by the University of California at Berkeley for 34 years. UC Berkeley is the crown jewel of the UC system.
 
Mike McDonald said:
This is how I recall the Bobb Kosoff car looking when it "debuted" in Southern California with a RF Fender Mounted Siren, Steady RED Spotlight and the California Firefighter (vanity plates) "63 JFK". He moved from So-Cal to Central California so maybe with are talking about two different Pontiac's? Do forensics on the RF Fender may link the two? (*) Also "K-O's" recollection of Mr. Kosoff years ago was spot on, at least from someone who was a "newbie" to the hobby and just listening from the bleachers at the time. (**) Original So-Cal PCS Charter Member #14 MM
Click to expand...

Mike, take a look at the link I posted under the CVC car link and see if anything looks familiar there, particularly the poster boards with pictures displayed on them. Do you remember seeing anything like that when he displayed the car in SoCal?
 
E-mail from David S. Lifton, author of a book on the assassination:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hello Steve Lichtman,

I have little doubt—indeed, no doubt—that if the Kennedy Library asked for permission to destroy the Navy vehicle, then that would have been done. Moreover, I can understand why they would do so: why waste valuable space on such a relic; but, (b), and more important, I am positive that the Kennedy family (and Jackie was alive then) always followed a policy of wanting to focus on JFK’s life, and not his death.

Anyway, the fact is that the evidence you write about (from Congressman Michel) pretty much establishes that the vehicle was destroyed, and Paul Hoch’s info re the letter written to someone who was NOT Surgeon General, when considered together, pretty much establish (to my mind, anyway) that someone went to considerable trouble to manufacture a counterfeit historical product and then attempt to foist it on the public.

I suspect that author of this fraudulent scheme very likely read my best-selling book, BEST EVIDENCE, which has a heavy emphasis on the goings-on at Bethesda Naval Hospital, on November 22, 1963. Specifically, I am referring to the use of a “decoy ambulance” to deceive the multi-service casket team (the pallbears deployed by Military District of Washington [MDW]) when the ambulance arrived at Bethesda Naval Hospital at 6:55 PM EST, dropped off Jacqueline and Robert Kennedy, and then—some 15 minutes later—was driven away (as reported in the Washington Post) by Navy Admiral Calvin Galloway, the Commanding Officer of the National Naval Medical Center.

The casket team attempted to follow, in their truck, but then “lost” the body for some 50 minutes, and were told they had followed “the wrong Navy ambulance.” Almost certainly, that is what the line about the “investigation” is all about. (See Chapter 16 of Best Evidence, “The Decoy Ambulance” etc.)

So, as far as I am concerned, all this is obviously a fraud, and—given the amount of time and money involved, etc—should not be viewed as some kind of a harmless prank.

Anyway, that’s my opinion.

I think the person involved should perhaps be seeking to hire an attorney, because I think he (or she) has significant legal exposure; and I certainly do hope, in view of all this information, no one attempts to host a public auction for this vehicle.

Keep me posted.

Sincerely,

DSL
(David S. Lifton)
Author, BEST EVIDENCE: Disguise and Deception in the Assassination of President Kennedy
 
E-mail from Paul Hoch to Steve Davis of Barrett-Jackson, in reply to the letter Mr. Davis sent earlier (which Dwayne already posted here):

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mr. Davis –

Thank you for responding so quickly. I am replying in some haste, with a few additional observations which I hope will be helpful.

I appreciate the fact that you have already put a lot of effort into examining the car and the purported documentation, and that the consignor, not your company, is vouching for it.

You have established that it is a genuine 1963 ambulance and that its physical features match the autopsy ambulance. The details of the process which you provided, and your willingness to provide them, are impressive.

However, I still think there is a good chance that it is a twin of the autopsy ambulance, and not the original.

It certainly could be the original even if the 1963 letters are not authentic.

Provided, that is, that the original was not really destroyed, as has been reported on the PCS forum. I would want to see the actual documents relating to the destruction to be sure.

Or perhaps the Navy plate (which I cannot interpret) escaped destruction (not unlikely) and later got attached to a different body.

You said that “we are mindful of the fact that these letters came to light through a government information request within the past year and a half.”

I myself would not rely on that claim without seeing the paperwork for that request, and also confirming with the government agency involved that

(a) the correspondence is genuine, and
(b) the two documents on your website are in fact the documents which were provided to the requester.

In other words:

If I am correct in my suspicion that the two documents in question are not authentic, I would also have to be suspicious of the FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) correspondence.

The releasing agency should be able to provide copies of exactly what they sent to the requester, to eliminate the possibility that the documents were subsequently edited or substituted for.

I think that would be the most important point to look into.

I am not questioning Dr. Jensen’s good faith, but it is possible that he used a lawyer or other intermediary in his FOIA efforts who was not as reliable.

Some less pressing additional comments with regard to the details of the letters, particularly Adm. Hogan’s:

I still see no reason for the Navy to ask for “all information” about the “manufacture” of this vehicle from Superior in 1963.

As an outsider to your community of car collectors, I am struck by the fact that the technical details in this exchange of letters – particularly the VIN (863P198767) – are the sort of thing that would be significant once the vehicle became a collector’s item, but not before.

Would not Hogan have identified himself as “Rear Admiral, MC, USN, Ret.” since he had left the Navy about two years earlier?

If one wanted to check Adm. Hogan’s signature (both the distinctive handwriting and the use of “Bart” as an abbreviation for “Bartholomew” in a letter to a stranger), one could look at his papers in the Boston College archives or the "biographical files" in the BUMED library.

http://library.bc.edu/F/P9XFYPIENPQ...set_number=001788&set_entry=000001&format=999

http://www.scribd.com/doc/19951984/BUMED-Historical-Files-Finding-Aid (p. 14)

I agree that the plain letterhead (with no address) was common in the federal government, but my impression (from reviewing many documents of that era in the Warren Commission files) is that such letterhead paper was designed for communications entirely within a single agency.

Certainly a letter to someone at a private company should have included a proper mailing address – that is, at least a postal code (two digits, or the new four-digit zip code).

To me, it makes no difference if the vehicle is a replica or the original.

But if Hogan’s letter is authentic, it is important to JFK-assassination researchers because of its reference to “the investigation into the President’s assassination,” insofar as that indicates an investigation by the military.

Anyone who is curious about my interest in that issue can read a 1979 staff report of the House Select Committee on Assassinations at http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=83&relPageId=545.

With best regards,

Paul Hoch

Steve L., Dwayne: you may post part or all of the above on the PCS forum, if you wish.
 
My thoughts

Dan Brintlinger, can you please post a copy of the letter you received from Congressman Michel?

From the photos, there's no doubt in my mind that the car at auction is the one Bobb Kossoff used to own. The lettering on the doors matches in height and font. If someone can check for the filled holes from the siren and/or the pancake lights added later, that would confirm that this car was Bobb's car. That doesn't answer whether it was or wasn't really the JFK car, but at least we know the less-recent history.

As for the letters, I think this is all very good research and will give us some answers to our own doubts. We certainly seem to have reason to doubt the claim.

But our doubts really don't matter much. Obviously, the folks at Barrett-Jackson are convinced that this is the real deal, and they have and will continue to advertise it as such. Remember, they do get their percentage of the $ale, so it's in their interest that this "sells high". It's not really their problem if this later turns out to not be the real deal - B-J made their commission. I suspect this auction will happen no matter what we find out or what we document. The seller will make a lot of money, B-J will make a lot of money, and the only one who will really have to deal with the potential that it's not what it was said to be will be......the buyer.

Caveat emptor. Let the buyer beware.

Of course, the buyer will not be the only one to suffer. Those of us who are interested in documenting the TRUE history will as well. If this later turns out to be a falsification, the only ones who will know will be us and the JFK assassination history folks. Whomever buys it, whomever displays it at a museum, and whomever pays to see it in the museum will still say "It's the JFK ambulance", whether or not it is. Eventually, we'll all die, the papers will blow away, the computer files will crash, but the car will still have the sign on it that says it's the ambulance that transported JFK, whether it's true or not.

And so, a small part of American History may possibly be rewritten next week in Scottsdale. Unnnh. :893USA-Smilie-thumb
 
Dan's Letter

Chuck Kramer said:
Dan's letter to the Editor appeared in THE PCS MAIL BAG , PCS Issue 51, page 19, First Quarter 1989.
Click to expand...

Any member that has this issue and a scanner can scan and post this letter.
I can't do it. Dan's letter was sent to Walt McCall, The PCS Editor. The PCS Store Keeper, Matt Taylor should have a copy of this issue as well as Nick Bliss our PCS Archivist.

Again, it's PCS Issue 51, page 19. First Quarter 1989.
 
Todd Merrifield said:
Mike, take a look at the link I posted under the CVC car link and see if anything looks familiar there, particularly the poster boards with pictures displayed on them. Do you remember seeing anything like that when he displayed the car in SoCal?
Click to expand...

YES Bobb Kosoff had the poster boards and all kinds of letters and enough documentation to choke a horse when it made it's first debut at a SC-PCS Event or Burn Run.
 
Well, it's been interesting following this story and the paper trail of this car, but from what I can "see", the Barrett-Jackson car is the Kosoff car, and if the Barrett-Jackson car truly were original, the lettering couldn't be.

Look at the gap between the bottom of the door trim and the top of the "U.S. Navy" lettering. The original car has a gap that's equal to, or near equal to, the height of the actual letters. There's half that distance in the Barrett-Jackson car and Bob Kosoff cars, which match just as Steve noted earlier.

And if that isn't enough, look at last line of the lettering compared to the crease in the door below it. The original car has a gap big enough to drive a truck through. There's almost no gap in the Barrett-Jackson car and Bob Kosoff cars. Funny looking for an "un-restored" car. Maybe they grow bigger with time??

Pic 1 - The original photo at Andrews Air Force Base.
Pic 2 - The Barrett-Jackson car.
Pic 3 - Bob Kosoff's car.

The lettering from the original footage doesn't match the Barrett-Jackson, but the letting on the Barrett-Jackson does match Bob Kosoff's car. That, with all the other less tangible information up to this point, is enough for me to think someone thought they could make a quick million dollars.... :2gunsfiring_v1:
 

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WOW!!! Since this thread has began and most especially the last couple days there has been a lot of great discussion about the 1963 Superior Pontiac Military Ambulance that transported the slain President John Fitzgerald Kennedy! That’s to all that have contributed their view’s and historical information on the subject! I've thoroughly enjoyed reading it! I'm grateful that Steve Davis of Barrett-Jackson has been following the discussion and listining to all that has been presented and discussed here and noted JFK assassination conspiracy specialist David Lifton and Paul Hoch have shared with us and their insight and theories about the JFK ambulance and the one that will be auctioned off by Barrett-Jackson next week. I've always been intrigued by the JFK assassination and the professional cars used at that time when everything took place back in November 1963. I'm disappointed that it seems that it isn't the actual car that was used then but it is a very interesting and historic car and a piece of Americana none the less for what it is. I will be watching as it rolls across the auction block and I'm sure it will be a very exciting atmosphere in Scottsdale when it is up on the block for auction! Keep the great discussion going!!!
 
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