JFK Pontiac ambulance up for auction

[Kent Dorsey]

It has long been discussed that Texas authorities wanted Kennedy's body to be autopsied in Texas, but that didn't happen. According to Wikipedia and everything I ever read - the body was taken to Bethesda and the autopsy started at 8pm and ended at 12am. Jackie Kennedy wanted him taken there because he was a naval officer.
Jeremy has a good point about two vehicles...

 

[John ED Renstrom]

ya, confused on that I admit. the video states they are taking the body to the hospital. the casket switch must have been done then. the pictures of him arriving after dark back to the white house may have take place the next day or the same day. they may have been just dropping people off on the way. about 4 days of none stop live coverage was kind of hard for a kid to remember. I do remember my grate grandmother was visiting at that time and she was glued to the set. quite a life for that old gal. born and raised on a farm in what is now the center of south chicago in the late 1800s she saw a lot in her 97 years from horse and buggy to a man walking on the moon, at least 4 wars, the great depression and two presidents assassinated. moved to Iowa in a wagon with her husband. took a trip to the west cost with her oldest son, grand and great grand daughter in a new Rambler station wagon. makes my life kind of tame. if all I got to worry about is some one scamming a fake ambulance on some rich dude.

 

[Mike McDonald]

The Bobb Kosoff Version....

Is this the car Bobb Kossoff has been trying to sell (eBay, etc.) for years?

The Bobb Kosoff version that was shown a lot all over So-Cal when he lived down there and a Member of the SC-PCS Chapter has the Siren on the RF Fender. No other version or picture history has that siren that I can recall. The same car also shows in the Central California Classics photo with a "California Firefighter" Plate with 63 JFK on it. The one that Jack Pinner referred to is a different one. Although it was originally portrayed as "THE ONE" by Kosoff with tons of pictures and documention, he later recanted that it was a very good clone (according to Lou Farah) MM

 

[Todd Merrifield]

quite obvious in the pictures posted that the front end of the car has been repainted. over spray in the inner fender that's fresh. the side view shows the color does not match.

You can tell that from a picture on a computer screen? I suppose it is impossible for it to be reflections, or for the fenderwell to be gray with road dirt on top of the paint...

there clam is the ID tag shows that it was station at Bethesda. but no pictures of the tag.

That's open to interpretation: The tag does not appear to show where it was stationed, but they could be saying that the government number ON the tag references the fact that that number car was stationed at Bethesda.

as for the taking him to Bethesda for a autopsy then to the white house. wrong. he went from Andrews to the whites house.

He was autopsied at Bethesda. The authorities in Dallas wanted to have the autopsy performed in Dallas, and even fought briefly for it with the secret service, but ultimately the SS won and he was transferred to Maryland, where the autopsy was performed.

goggle JFY. its all there. there was only one autopsy done on him in Texas.

I don't know about "Goggle-ing JFY?", but if you "Google" "Kennedy autopsy" you will see an endless stream of links to pages on the web that state the autopsy was performed at Bethesda. It is also stated in the video footage that I posted that he was being transported to Bethesda.

 

[Brady D Smith]

This much I know for sure.......

The body was not examined in Texas. It was stolen from the medical examiner at gunpint, placed in an Elgin bronze casket that old Vernon Oneal never was paid for and taken to Love field in O'Neals 64 M-M combination that "them sumbitches stole." Upon arrival at Andrews it was loaded into a Pontiac ambulance and supposedly taken to be autopsied and then Gawler's Sons Funeral Directors embalmed the body and placed it in a Marsellus mahogany casket and it was then returned to the White House to lie in state. And I also remember seeing that film with a backup car in the background. I worked around this stuff enough to know that there is pretty much ALWAYS a backup to EVERYTHING. So we may never know how many of these things were involved in some way originally.

 

[Dwayne Brooks]

Knowing that Barrett-Jackson claims to make every attempt to research the cars they sell, I emailed them this morning so they're aware of the controversy surrounding this coach & invited them to our site. Maybe should have asked the membership first, but it seems you guys have several legitimate claims they need to be aware of... and no one would like to be the guy that got duped buying a clone of this magnitude.
Barrett-Jackson does have a forum where you can discuss the cars up for auction. Looking through it this morning there's nothing pertaining to this ambulace yet. If anyone is active on their site or wants to become active, here's the link to their forums:
http://community.barrett-jackson.com/forums

 

[Kent Dorsey]

ya, confused on that I admit. the video states they are taking the body to the hospital. the casket switch must have been done then. the pictures of him arriving after dark back to the white house may have take place the next day or the same day. they may have been just dropping people off on the way. about 4 days of none stop live coverage was kind of hard for a kid to remember. I do remember my grate grandmother was visiting at that time and she was glued to the set. quite a life for that old gal. born and raised on a farm in what is now the center of south chicago in the late 1800s she saw a lot in her 97 years from horse and buggy to a man walking on the moon, at least 4 wars, the great depression and two presidents assassinated. moved to Iowa in a wagon with her husband. took a trip to the west cost with her oldest son, grand and great grand daughter in a new Rambler station wagon. makes my life kind of tame. if all I got to worry about is some one scamming a fake ambulance on some rich dude.

Ed, there's some quite good footage on youtube from a DavidVonPein1 who has JFK Assassination (CBS News Coverage) in 56 parts. It starts with As The World Turns... I have watched up to part seven in the last few days after this dialogue started... quite interesting. The casket being off loaded from Air Force One to the Pontiac was a cluster...

 

[Steve Loftin]

The plot thickens...Jack Pinner stated that the ambulance in question was manufactured by Memphis Coach to government specifications matching a Superior, but this coach has an ID tag that clearly states it was manufactured by Superior Coach? Somebody is fibbing...

The car in question is absolutely and positively a Superior (as was every other USN '63 Pontiac ambulance). The last cars built by Memphis for the US government were the '61 Pontiacs.

 

[John ED Renstrom]

You can tell that from a picture on a computer screen? I suppose it is impossible for it to be reflections, or for the fenderwell to be gray with road dirt on top of the paint...

That's open to interpretation: The tag does not appear to show where it was stationed, but they could be saying that the government number ON the tag references the fact that that number car was stationed at Bethesda.


I have admitted I slip up on the autopsy can't do more then that. the government tag never shows were the vehicle is station. that's subject to change at any time . I'll post the pictures from the screen shot of the auction. if that isn't a miss match on the front then I haven't ever seen one. definitely over-spray on the inner fender. its over the mud. but the truth is if it had not been ordered destroyed. I never believed that story either. then it would have finished out it's service for the fleet the numbers would have been painted out on the door and it would have sold at auction along with the rest of the surplus GAS fleet. not pointed out the as the car. it would have been done no more then 10 years and as little as 5 after it was acquired. if some one had the car they would have stated it years ago. maybe not to me or you but it would be known about like the 64 combo or the MLK car. both of which were used a for the purpose intended re done a number of times. there is no doubt on them. this one to surface now in original condition hid away all this time. I not willing to believe at all.

but they have a number of sites I can always get to by goggling jfk. shows the HX from the time of the incident to the grave. as I don't have every moment ready to recall you can tell just how really important that is to me.

it was the first time TV went to a stand still and they went live off the cuff reporting instead of a written script. the clip posted reviles the reporter stumbling and miss naming things. all part of the myth. some one heard something that sticks in there head. may be true or not but they heard it.
it may have been corrected and they did catch that part may have just let go. but the motorcade with him in the ambulance did go to the white house that day. why I don't know. you can see the limos filling up and scrambling to catch up with the Secret service driving the ambulance just like they did the hearse in Dallas. it was a cluster from the first shot to the when it settled down for the viewing and the funeral. all part of the mystery, for a nation in shock.
me I still have trouble with the pictures of the car. but take into account the long range shot in poor light. that may account for why the car roof looks flatter and more square in the rear. the one color gray then change the angle and one molding disappears and the other looks twice as large. things like that. but if this one is not the car then it as close to it as you and I will ever see. a GSA contract that year of only 15 is just as hard to believe to.

watch the video and you tell me were the rear door for the car gos. you see it open and navy personal get out then the car backs up and it gets loaded but you never see the door open. swallowed up by the crown most likely and they move to Jacky when it gets closed . but just one more thing.

 

[John ED Renstrom]

don't get fooled I have flip the photo of the should be car to try to match body lines. that's why the rear door is different.

 

[Brady D Smith]

The cluster........

The other "cluster" that occurred at Love field combined with the "cluster" at Andrews, is the reason they changed to a mahogany casket. The bronze was heavily damaged by being drug over the bier pins by agents who had no idea what they were doing but were refusing to let the experts do their jobs.

 

[Jeremy D. Ledford]

The other "cluster" that occurred at Love field combined with the "cluster" at Andrews, is the reason they changed to a mahogany casket. The bronze was heavily damaged by being drug over the bier pins by agents who had no idea what they were doing but were refusing to let the experts do their jobs.

I'd also heard that the handles were broken off the bronze casket to get it into Air Force One as well too.

 

[Dwayne Brooks]

Received a very nice and lengthy email today directly from Steve Davis, president of Barrett-Jackson in regards to our concerns over this ambulance. I will copy & paste it tonight. (posting this quick update from my phone) A quick summary is that this car was attempted to run thru the auction by the former owner but Barrett-Jackson refused it due to a lack of proof. The present owner used the Freedom of Information Act to his advantage and has turned over hard evidence from the Navy that proves this ambulance is authentic without a doubt to be the Kennedy ambulance. The email is much more detailed and they have even made these records available on their site. He goes on to thank the Friends of the Professional Car Society for our concerns & dedication to the cars. A very nice & informative letter indeed, excited to share it later tonight with everyone!

 

[Dwayne Brooks]

Here is the email reply received today, sorry for not pasting it in earlier i had to get to work when this came in.

Dwayne,



Thank you for your email.



I appreciate the fact that you took the time to contact us directly.



Barrett-Jackson does take pride in making sure, to the best of our ability, the provenance of a vehicle consigned to our event is accurate, especially one as historically significant as the Kennedy Ambulance.



To that point, we have pulled high-profile vehicles from our docket as the result of uncovering information that disproves a claim by a consignor.



Such was the case last year, with the Buddy Holley Impala, as well as an issue we had with Al Jardine’s Cuda (which we were able to resolve). I have attached the press releases outlining the facts in both of these instances for your reference.



This transparency is one of the reasons Barrett-Jackson was recently chosen as one of the top 100 most ethical companies in the world, the first time an auction company has ever been recognized as such.



As we celebrate our 40th anniversary, it is of the utmost importance for us to embrace the hobby, enthusiasts like yourself, and your organization, and continue to provide a transparent, professional, and honest platform for collectors to buy and sale.



Regarding the concerns expressed by some of your members, I would like to supply the following information:



Barrett-Jackson has in its possession copies, supplied at our request by the consignor, of recently uncovered documents obtained through the Freedom of Information Act from the Department of the Navy/Surgeon General, as well as Superior Coach Corporation, that for the first time, ties the Navy registration number and the VIN number of the 1963 Pontiac Bonneville chassis together.



Barrett-Jackson was previously offered this ambulance for auction, by a different owner, but we refused to accept it, based on the fact that there was no VIN documentation, or provenance, that linked this specific ambulance to the Kennedy ambulance.



Subsequently the new, and current owner, through an extensive investigation, was able to uncover documents, that, as I stated, for the first time, tie the VIN, and Naval registration numbers together.



Documents show, Superior Coach Corporation, in response to a investigation by the Navy, confirmed the Navy registration number, 94-49196, as well as the Navy contract number, DA-20-113-AMC-1236-X, and the serial (VIN) number, 863P198767, of the ambulance that transported JFK, his wife, and brother from Andrews Air Force Base.



The letters referenced above will be placed on our website for review.



In addition, upon arrival of the vehicle to our site, we will also do a physical inspection of the numbers, verify them against all of the paper work and title in our possession, and based on that inspection being satisfactory, will proceed.



Again Dwayne, thanks to you and all the Friends Of The Professional Car Society for the information….our goal is the same, to keep the hobby alive and well.



I wish a Happy New Year to you and all the members of the Professional Car Society.



Best regards,



Steve Davis



















Steve Davis

President

Barrett-Jackson Auction Company, L.L.C.

7400 E. Monte Cristo

Scottsdale, AZ 85260



P. 480.421.6694
F. 480.421.6697
sdavis@barrett-Jackson.com

www.barrett-jackson.com

 

[Todd Merrifield]

So, assuming everything checks out, how much will it go for? The 64 was bid up to $900,000...think this one will hit a mil? Barrett-Jackson is very excited about it, and they see a lot of "special" cars...

 

[Rick Duffy]

Saw on a recent TV program

I'd also heard that the handles were broken off the bronze casket to get it into Air Force One as well too.

Jeremy is correct!

I believe this was on the history channel, just before Christmas. The show was an in depth program regarding the Secret Service team assigned to the Kennedy's at the time of the assasination. All were interviewed, it was VERY moving and quite emotional for the agents.

One agent discussed the "cluster" at the airport. and stated that the bronze casket handles were indeed broken, as they tried to wedge the casket through the door of Airforce One, prior to leaving Love Field for DC. He reiterated that they had a VERY difficult time getting the casket aboard the aircraft and as a result, the handles were broken off in order to make it fit through the doorway.

 

[Kent Dorsey]

This thread has had some of the most interesting dialogue and discussion for days... I checked in several times a day to get updates on comments...

 

[Aaron Greene]

Looking at the engine compartment picture from the pontiacsonline link I see some things that would question the original, unrestored statment. But the one thing that stood out to me is that this appears to be a Non Air Conditioned car?

 

[John ED Renstrom]

some one needs to get together with this owner and have him teach us how to research our ambulances. if they can document the car leaving gm (gm assigned vin number), arriving at superior put in the assembly line(sill and superior number) to get built in the lot being sold to gsa and being assigned that number( navy Id ) from the dept of the navy. then sold at auction to a privet sell. never licenced or had taxes paid on it. all that threw the gm vin number then everyone with a superior should be able to do the same with there car. I'm still doubt full. I would have to see how they linked the three sets of numbers together. the gm vin number the superior production number and the navy tag. all these numbers one would be able to find. the Nave number is painted on. the brass tag stamped and attached by 4 screws. they claim to know that only 15 were built by superior in 63 and sold to GSA. any one of the the Pon sold to superior could have been this car. with all the hype on the Kennedy memorable why would anyone if they had the car stay mum till now. if you went to the auction the number would not have been advertised just that they were selling a ambulance lot number what ever. you buy it not knowing of it place in HX. numbers painted out on the doors, brass tag still on the dash. you then don't licence it but put it in a corner of your barn for 40 years or better. or you have inside info on the car the navy that is been using as a ambulance for the last 10 years. you watch and wait for it to be sold at some date. as you don't know when it will be you watch close. never telling anyone why you and only you are keeping a eye on it. it sells, you get it as you know all about it. you then hide it away as now it's yours. only to dragged out washed off and as good as the day it was put in. after your gone.

to much for me to believe that no one else knew of the car and to easy to make one. a 100 Gs spend on a reproduction with a chance of gaining a mill. been a lot less spent on a sting.
not one of the people in that video saw anymore of the gray navy ambulance to ID it then we just did. if you can find out all that on the car. were is the sailor or nurse that drove the car out to the base. or anyone else that can say they drove it, or were in it, or washed it, or changed the oil on it. or backed into a post with it, scratched there initials in the dash waiting for the military something. were is the info on the car in service that no one else that wanted to could find??

sorry this is like ever other bit of fiction . either you buy the bit and go along or you don't. nothing in this letter would convince me to open up my wallet

 

[Kevin O'Connell - Deceased - 1954 - 2019]

I'm with Ed. I'm still not convinced but if the guy can produce the actual documentation and prove that the nomenclature plate is authentic, good for him. The lettering on this car matches the incorrect lettering on Kosoff's car. Its appearance changed several times after Bobb acquired it. In addition to the C5, Kosoff also had a pair of SignalStat lollipop lights on it for a while. In any hobby, once you establish yourself as a profiteer you can reasonably expect people to view all your dealings with a jaundiced eye.