I'm not convinced just yet. But I'm listening.... 
JFK Pontiac ambulance up for auction
- Thread starter Tony Blair
- Start date
Brendan Martin
PCS Member
Well I just hope i remember to watch the auction, somebody please remind me.:bonk:
Let me be very clear about this up front........I don't have a "horse in this race", it doesn't make a bit of difference to me one way or the other about this car.
That being said, a few observations based on that whole "firefighter logic" thing that gets me into a lot of heated discussions. It would appear that B-J Group is satisfied that the car is the real deal. If they want to take a chance on it...go for it! As for my taste, there are too many "gaps" in the documented history of this vehicle.
I find it very hard to believe that somebody/anybody had the damn thing in their possession for well over 30 years (presuming a 10 year military career) and didn't tell anybody about it. Incredible!! The vehicle served as a "pool ambulance" based out of Bethesda. I'd be willing to bet the ranch that it wasn't pulled out of service right after it's purported use for JFK, for the sake of "posterity". IF it was, somebody made that decision, others knew of it, and it would have to be well documented. The military documents EVERYTHING!! If that happened, it would have been stored in a DOD facility somewhere, and well documented. The military documents EVERYTHING!!
After it's presumed 10 year military career it would have been disposed of like everything else. It may even have been buried in the desert somewher in Arizona as are many other items of military equipment. If it were disposed of, I'm willing to bet that nobody knew it was the JFK car.
I'm with Ed on this one......show me a solid, unbroken chain of evidence from "birth to death" on the thing. From Pontiac to Superior, to DOD, to final disposition THEN AND ONLY THEN will you have a vehicle maybe worth 100's of thousands of dollars. Not some restored piece, not something that looks like some bad work was done on it.
Failing all of the above, the car in it's current state would be just another $25-30,000 car. Too many questions, not near enough answers.
The other side of this is this...the O'Neal car has a well documented, unbroken chain of evidence from "birth to present". THAT CAR is worth every penny that any buyer is willing to pay for it.
Just me applying that dumbass firefighter logic to the situation.
That being said, a few observations based on that whole "firefighter logic" thing that gets me into a lot of heated discussions. It would appear that B-J Group is satisfied that the car is the real deal. If they want to take a chance on it...go for it! As for my taste, there are too many "gaps" in the documented history of this vehicle.
I find it very hard to believe that somebody/anybody had the damn thing in their possession for well over 30 years (presuming a 10 year military career) and didn't tell anybody about it. Incredible!! The vehicle served as a "pool ambulance" based out of Bethesda. I'd be willing to bet the ranch that it wasn't pulled out of service right after it's purported use for JFK, for the sake of "posterity". IF it was, somebody made that decision, others knew of it, and it would have to be well documented. The military documents EVERYTHING!! If that happened, it would have been stored in a DOD facility somewhere, and well documented. The military documents EVERYTHING!!
After it's presumed 10 year military career it would have been disposed of like everything else. It may even have been buried in the desert somewher in Arizona as are many other items of military equipment. If it were disposed of, I'm willing to bet that nobody knew it was the JFK car.
I'm with Ed on this one......show me a solid, unbroken chain of evidence from "birth to death" on the thing. From Pontiac to Superior, to DOD, to final disposition THEN AND ONLY THEN will you have a vehicle maybe worth 100's of thousands of dollars. Not some restored piece, not something that looks like some bad work was done on it.
Failing all of the above, the car in it's current state would be just another $25-30,000 car. Too many questions, not near enough answers.
The other side of this is this...the O'Neal car has a well documented, unbroken chain of evidence from "birth to present". THAT CAR is worth every penny that any buyer is willing to pay for it.
Just me applying that dumbass firefighter logic to the situation.
I agree with everything that you have said with the exception of this one statement.....
I just don't believe that any military ambulance is more valuable than a similiar civilian ambulance.
I just don't believe that any military ambulance is more valuable than a similiar civilian ambulance.
I think a military ambulance would be worth less because they were "plain Jane," no-frills cars without notable features or options. Plus, because they were even lower production than civilian models and didn't share many components, parts would be difficult to find.
For example...I think a civilian '63 Superior, in like condition, would go for twice what a military version would.
John ED Renstrom
PCS Member
having sold one I will agree. had my 72 been a tricked out civvy one with the 1400 miles on it it would have brought a lot more. as it was the man that got it wanted it for his business of refurbishing and resell military ambulances. I got top dollar for it I thought and nowhere near that figure.
one other thing is if you buy a car at auction. one would keep the auction papers with the car. that is if they knew the cars HX and wanted to save it. at least the sale bill with the car listed. be interesting if the vin frame and engine numbers match. being a poncho it should. if it was a caddy commercial chassis it might not.
one other thing is if you buy a car at auction. one would keep the auction papers with the car. that is if they knew the cars HX and wanted to save it. at least the sale bill with the car listed. be interesting if the vin frame and engine numbers match. being a poncho it should. if it was a caddy commercial chassis it might not.
Jeremy D. Ledford
PCS Volunteer Chapter President
When I was about 13 or 14 years old in the early 1990's and we use to refurb boats and had a local dealer we would do them for. I remember for a short time they had a mid 60's Superior military Poncho on the boat lot. At that time it was the first one (and only one so far) that I had seen like this in person. I remember thinking, where are all the lights and a ambulance is suppose to have a bunch of lights! I remember is was very sparse on the inside and it had the brass data plate on the dash stating it was a military unit. I climbed around on it pretty good when I saw it since I was fascinated by these cars any way! I remember it was light grey and you could still faintly make out the military markings on the front doors. A few weeks later we went back to carry another boat back and it was gone.
So, are some of you suggesting this could be Bobb Kosoff's car, reworked? That would explain Ed's theory of the repainted doghouse, to cover up where the siren was?
Are there more pictures around of the JFK car in use, or only stills from TV coverage? I can't seem to find very many clear pictures of it. This is one of the best I have found:
At least you can make out the numbers on the side in this one, and there's no doubt that's Jackie trying to open the door, so we know unit 94-49196 was used for at least that leg of the trip so that should clear the number question up.
Dwayne, since you already have a point of contact, it might be interesting to see if we can find out the name on the title for the previous owner that the current owner purchased the car from, supposedly a "collector in California". If it happens to be Bobb Kosoff's car and his name is on the title (not likely, but who knows), that would open up a whole can of worms. He IS from California...
Are there more pictures around of the JFK car in use, or only stills from TV coverage? I can't seem to find very many clear pictures of it. This is one of the best I have found:
At least you can make out the numbers on the side in this one, and there's no doubt that's Jackie trying to open the door, so we know unit 94-49196 was used for at least that leg of the trip so that should clear the number question up.
Dwayne, since you already have a point of contact, it might be interesting to see if we can find out the name on the title for the previous owner that the current owner purchased the car from, supposedly a "collector in California". If it happens to be Bobb Kosoff's car and his name is on the title (not likely, but who knows), that would open up a whole can of worms. He IS from California...
Kent Dorsey
PCS Member / Funeral Director
Just an interesting note on the video...Jackie is entering from the drivers side... with the jump seats access obviously from the other side. If the casket had been placed, there wasn't a tremendous amount of room betwixt the casket and the wall, I am assuming she climbed over to the jump seats? This has nothing to do with the auction, just interesting that in the cluster, no one directed her to the other side. Or maybe I am missing something...
CBS is now carrying the story.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011...html?tag=cbsnewsTwoColLowerPromoArea;morenews
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011...html?tag=cbsnewsTwoColLowerPromoArea;morenews
John ED Renstrom
PCS Member
that CBS bit is word for word off the sale bill. so nothing new there. my thoughts is that a brass tag could be printed up( habd stanped) and the numbers painted on any one of the 63 military ponchos. then you have a numbers match car. it's a 63 it was sold to superior and the number of the car is the same as the one used . I have stated that I saw one on the docks at long beach when I was testing fire hose off the ship in front of the spruce goose in 70. this car could be that one. that one could have been the car used to transport him to. he says he has documentation to prove it. I don't think he can. BJ wants to sell it as it, that's there busness. me I'm not bidding or watching. don't have to some one where will put that info out. as for pictures there are a few in the JFK library most around are off the air footage live telecast. you don't see any flashes during that video as none were allowed that close. it was just a car big enough to do the job. a deuce and half truck would have been easier but not look as good. they used a ambulance because they did not have a Hearse. we know were the limo has been we know were the Hearse has been. how did this one skip everyone till now?? here a couple more I have gathered.
Attachments
Rick Franklin
PCS Member
something isnt quite right.
We are supposed to believe that through the Freedom of Information Act that the current owner has traced the vin number, naval number etc through Pontiac, Superior, and the Dept of Defense. Why is it then, with all of the mergers, sales of the company etc; and the closing of the Superior plant in Mississippi that presumably Accubuilt still has this old info and WE cant find out the "pedigree" on our 50s and 60s coaches of this era. Something just isn't right with the paper trail here and someone is going to get bit in the butt my a mongrel.
We are supposed to believe that through the Freedom of Information Act that the current owner has traced the vin number, naval number etc through Pontiac, Superior, and the Dept of Defense. Why is it then, with all of the mergers, sales of the company etc; and the closing of the Superior plant in Mississippi that presumably Accubuilt still has this old info and WE cant find out the "pedigree" on our 50s and 60s coaches of this era. Something just isn't right with the paper trail here and someone is going to get bit in the butt my a mongrel.
I have some photos in my computer that indicate that, about two years ago, there was a '63 Superior Pontiac military ambulance for sale on the net at Central Valley Classics (which I assume is in CA). I think there was another for more recently that was fron Utah. So there have been a couple that may have recently changed hands. I don't remember either one claiming to have have been the JFK ambulance.
I've always noticed that when I watched the film/video. Jackie looks pretty numb - understandably - as she's walking toward the car, she probably just walked to the first door she got to. The jump seats would have to have been folded down flat to fit the casket. And there probably wasn't much room to move around the head of the casket, due to the cabinet being there (and there were no rollers, either). Though we'll never know for sure, she probably just sat on the floor.
My guess is, for whatever reason when the casket went in it may have been pushed to the right, so she instinctively went to the left. The ambulance had shades up and no one was on the ball enough to tell her to go to the other side, vut as Steve said, the jump seats were probably down so one side is just as easy as the other. There is a cabinet on both sides.
If the seller can tie the VIN number to the navy number (preferably with the VIN in a couple places) I will be more inclined to believe his case. Transfer sale papers would help too. It'll be interesting to see what kind of information becomes available, and who has owned it in the past.
How'd you like to be that guy that lifted Jackie down out of the truck? That's something you remember for the rest of your life...
By the way Dwayne, check out the very end of the video I posted to see the dignitaries being whisked away in brand spankin' new 64 Mercury Montereys!
If the seller can tie the VIN number to the navy number (preferably with the VIN in a couple places) I will be more inclined to believe his case. Transfer sale papers would help too. It'll be interesting to see what kind of information becomes available, and who has owned it in the past.
How'd you like to be that guy that lifted Jackie down out of the truck? That's something you remember for the rest of your life...
By the way Dwayne, check out the very end of the video I posted to see the dignitaries being whisked away in brand spankin' new 64 Mercury Montereys!
I asked my wifer to look in all our photos for some pictures of some U.S. Navy Pontiac Superior ambulances that I took a long time ago. These were taken at the Pensacola Naval Air Station in January or February of 1967 (?).
Memory is kinda fuzzy. My buddy and I were sitting in the Westgate Bar & Grill one very cold, snowy winter night drinking our dinner. It dawned on both of us that Florida was most likely a hell of a lot warmer. I called my girlfriend, borrowed $70.00, had her take us to Cleveland Airport and away we went. Told her to hang on to my car, I'd call her when we got back.
After much ado, we wound up at his aunt's house in Pensacola. They were a Navy family so we had access to the base.
There is a lot more to this story, but this covers the high points. Just for the record, there have been a whole lot of mornings in my past when I'd wake up and find out I DID WHAT?????? WHAT MADE THAT SOUND LIKE A GOOD IDEA??? Then I'd realize it was all alcohol powered thinking. It's been a fun life so far!!!
Memory is kinda fuzzy. My buddy and I were sitting in the Westgate Bar & Grill one very cold, snowy winter night drinking our dinner. It dawned on both of us that Florida was most likely a hell of a lot warmer. I called my girlfriend, borrowed $70.00, had her take us to Cleveland Airport and away we went. Told her to hang on to my car, I'd call her when we got back.
After much ado, we wound up at his aunt's house in Pensacola. They were a Navy family so we had access to the base.
There is a lot more to this story, but this covers the high points. Just for the record, there have been a whole lot of mornings in my past when I'd wake up and find out I DID WHAT?????? WHAT MADE THAT SOUND LIKE A GOOD IDEA??? Then I'd realize it was all alcohol powered thinking. It's been a fun life so far!!!
Bill Marcy
PCS Member
I asked my wifer to look in all our photos for some pictures of some U.S. Navy Pontiac Superior ambulances that I took a long time ago. These were taken at the Pensacola Naval Air Station in January or February of 1967 (?).
Memory is kinda fuzzy. My buddy and I were sitting in the Westgate Bar & Grill one very cold, snowy winter night drinking our dinner. It dawned on both of us that Florida was most likely a hell of a lot warmer. I called my girlfriend, borrowed $70.00, had her take us to Cleveland Airport and away we went. Told her to hang on to my car, I'd call her when we got back.
After much ado, we wound up at his aunt's house in Pensacola. They were a Navy family so we had access to the base.
There is a lot more to this story, but this covers the high points. Just for the record, there have been a whole lot of mornings in my past when I'd wake up and find out I DID WHAT?????? WHAT MADE THAT SOUND LIKE A GOOD IDEA??? Then I'd realize it was all alcohol powered thinking. It's been a fun life so far!!!
Russell, these are 1964 Superior Pontiacs.
I forget, what's the difference between a 63 and a 64??? How to tell one from the other.
Bill Marcy
PCS Member
A 63 has a flat spot on the top of the front fender and no body-line on the rear quarters, as opposed to the 64, which sort of comes to a point on top of the front fender and has the heavy body-line on the rear quarters. There are other differences, but those are sufficient, right?
If you all think we should, i'll contact Steve again & let him know a couple of things we've most recently discussed such as to do a title search for the name Bobb Kosoff (and why) and to look under the passenger fender where a siren may have been mounted.
I must add I thought the exact same thing Ed said on page 3 of this thread... that the passenger front fender & front door appear to be repainted... they appear a shade darker in 2 photos from 2 different angles. Also, that 2nd pic in Ed's post of the grill shot looking down the passenger side... it looks like "fogging" in the nooks & crannies of the grill of gray paint, like what happens when you paint & didn't mask off well enough. I also thought it was odd the tag pictured had 2 of it's 4 mounting screws sloppily screwed in at angles & the tag doesn't lay flat. Also that paint in the close-up of the tag sure looks fresh back in the pockets above it.
Todd I doubt seriously they provide any info of names on a title, even a previous owner. We can give them a head's up though to title search it. Steve did write again saying they are anxiously awaiting the arrival of the ambulance for closer inspection. I don't know, it's hard to analize from photos but our interest in this is for authenticity purposes.
As for that paperwork on the auction site, those inquiries were dated 1964 so that's how they obtained info from Superior (they still had records then LOL) & these documents were somehow uncovered. None of it is recent between the military & Superior.
I can contact Steve again, you guys just let me know if we should or just leave it alone & discuss it among ourselves.
I must add I thought the exact same thing Ed said on page 3 of this thread... that the passenger front fender & front door appear to be repainted... they appear a shade darker in 2 photos from 2 different angles. Also, that 2nd pic in Ed's post of the grill shot looking down the passenger side... it looks like "fogging" in the nooks & crannies of the grill of gray paint, like what happens when you paint & didn't mask off well enough. I also thought it was odd the tag pictured had 2 of it's 4 mounting screws sloppily screwed in at angles & the tag doesn't lay flat. Also that paint in the close-up of the tag sure looks fresh back in the pockets above it.
Todd I doubt seriously they provide any info of names on a title, even a previous owner. We can give them a head's up though to title search it. Steve did write again saying they are anxiously awaiting the arrival of the ambulance for closer inspection. I don't know, it's hard to analize from photos but our interest in this is for authenticity purposes.
As for that paperwork on the auction site, those inquiries were dated 1964 so that's how they obtained info from Superior (they still had records then LOL) & these documents were somehow uncovered. None of it is recent between the military & Superior.
I can contact Steve again, you guys just let me know if we should or just leave it alone & discuss it among ourselves.
John ED Renstrom
PCS Member
me I would just say that a number of people doubt the story. don't think that the documentation can be gathered that would close any doubt. that the story of were the car has been the last 40 years and know one else knew of it is in question. asked him to check the radiator support for fresh paint or a different set of numbers. the military had the car number stenciled normally on the right top of the radiator support. it would ware off easily as it was spray painted in lacquer. but one should still be able to find it. the line numbers would be on the back of the upholstery and should all match. as for miss matched paint i would be a lot more worried if it were all the same. nothing makes it 40 years painted in lacquer with out getting touched up.