“History is written by the victors.” Winston Churchhill
Or in this case by the seller/buy.
JFK Pontiac ambulance up for auction
- Thread starter Tony Blair
- Start date
“History is written by the victors.” Winston Churchhill
Or in this case by the seller/buy.
Daniel Scully
PCS Member
Caveat emptor
John ED Renstrom
PCS Member
I still say it's a numbers match car. but the letter linking the numbers is doubtful. how could superior have any knowledge of a number the navy assigned to a car. why would superior keep a gm vin number linked to there line number. once the cut the car in two it was no longer the gm car and that number is void. it was sold off the line number "404". which is the true serial number of the car. the strange thing is the they claim only 150 were made. that seems vary low to me. the tag I posted is off one of the others. I'll include the pictures of it I got from Steve when we were looking at something different BJ is selling the car for the current owner. that is understood. about all they are saying is the paper work the owner has shown is plausible. but like others the letter linking the numbers to me stinks. there would be no reason for the nave to want information from superior on a car they had . they had the car and access to any contract information they wanted. it was only newly acquired by them at that time. the ink was hardly dry on the contract. the brass tag is hand stamped,put on with screws. the doors stenciled. to easy to get a numbers match car. if the library got the car and some one did not crush it?? were has it been?? that's the HX we are missing. that links this car to that day or days. because it carried him twice. can't we do just as good a job making this one into one?? the problem is we could. anyone care to type of a set of papers linking this sit of numbers to a navy one. why can't we find the original contract?? we have the number of it.
Attachments
Mike McDonald
PCS Member
In a container at Ft Irvin
Ed: As I recall Kosoff's car.... in his back-up documentaion was allegded to have been stored in a sea train container near Barstow (CA).... possibly Ft Irvin?
Ed: As I recall Kosoff's car.... in his back-up documentaion was allegded to have been stored in a sea train container near Barstow (CA).... possibly Ft Irvin?
As far as Barrett-Jackson goes, I don't think they're going to risk bad press by selling a counterfeit car just to pocket $100,000 (assuming it sells for a million). That's small change to them, and they are big this year on being voted one of Americas "most ethical" companies. High dollar auction companies are already under scrutiny this year in the wake of the dust-up with Kruse last year.
From what I have read, they have done their due diligence and given what they have found there is no reason to believe it is NOT the real car. It is now up to others to offer proof that it isn't the real car, which has not been done yet. There are a lot of things that are suspicious, and a lot of rumors, but no one yet has offered any concrete proof that this can't be the car. While it was rumored to have been crushed, I have not seen any evidence to prove this fact. Even if someone shows there was a request to have it done, I have not been able to come up with any proof that it was actually done. If someone has proof I would very much like to see it.
The only thing that really bothers me right now is that the auction car is being referred to as an "original and unrestored" car. I firmly believe this is Bobb Kosoff's car, and if it is we can be reasonably sure through personal accounts that it has been reworked quite a bit. Of course, to anyone outside of our group this is just hearsay, but it it ISN'T the same car then that means there is this car out there AND an almost identical clone.
I'm more interested in the history of Bobb Kosoff's car at this point. Pictures, VIN number, etc..., to compare to this car.
From what I have read, they have done their due diligence and given what they have found there is no reason to believe it is NOT the real car. It is now up to others to offer proof that it isn't the real car, which has not been done yet. There are a lot of things that are suspicious, and a lot of rumors, but no one yet has offered any concrete proof that this can't be the car. While it was rumored to have been crushed, I have not seen any evidence to prove this fact. Even if someone shows there was a request to have it done, I have not been able to come up with any proof that it was actually done. If someone has proof I would very much like to see it.
The only thing that really bothers me right now is that the auction car is being referred to as an "original and unrestored" car. I firmly believe this is Bobb Kosoff's car, and if it is we can be reasonably sure through personal accounts that it has been reworked quite a bit. Of course, to anyone outside of our group this is just hearsay, but it it ISN'T the same car then that means there is this car out there AND an almost identical clone.
I'm more interested in the history of Bobb Kosoff's car at this point. Pictures, VIN number, etc..., to compare to this car.
John ED Renstrom
PCS Member
this is one of the reasons I believe in taking a photo of at least the makers tag. if enough of us do it that would help keep the cars straight. so if this is the "one" and it was stored in a container in Barstow how did it get there from the east cost? if the car was given to the JFK library there is a transfer on paper somewhere. if it was sold at auction it would have been on the east cost. the car would have been sold empty also. the equipment in it would not be what was there when it was is service. but added later. none of that was there when he was moved in it anyway. so what is original?? if the library sold it for scrap there would be a record of receiving the car and selling it. or at least receiving a sum of money from a scrap yard. the government does not throw anything away and none profit places keep vary good records of money in and out. the letter tying the numbers together is to pat for me.
John Royark JR
PCS Member
John Royark JR
PCS Member
Mike McDonald
PCS Member
FR Fender
Checking out the body work on the RF Fender should be enough to know if it's Kosoff's or not.... unless they changed the whole fender.... there should be evidence of the C-5 being there or not + now seeing the other PCS show field photos of the "lolly-pops" that "K-O" mentioned the other day. Knowing Kosoff.... he probably thought adding those on made it look more like it was in TEXAS at one time.... there should repaired holes in that area of the roof a too. MM
Checking out the body work on the RF Fender should be enough to know if it's Kosoff's or not.... unless they changed the whole fender.... there should be evidence of the C-5 being there or not + now seeing the other PCS show field photos of the "lolly-pops" that "K-O" mentioned the other day. Knowing Kosoff.... he probably thought adding those on made it look more like it was in TEXAS at one time.... there should repaired holes in that area of the roof a too. MM
John ED Renstrom
PCS Member
do the dates from this letter work out with the dates stated of acquiring the car? "it is believed to have been", is no different then "it is the". still nothing definite. but not the sames story as Bobby ordering it destroyed. my guess is the library would have disposed of it as excess property. it could have gone to a junk yard and could have been sold again whole. again not one word of it. just put in a cargo box and left in a back lot at Barstow. the numbers on the door have been changed that is a fact. the car has been rebuilt. some what. the car we think it is was offered in central valley with a parts car the white one I have pictured I'm understanding it to be it. the last one sold off e-bay. we talked about the man would not send me a pictured of the superior tag. so there are more out there from this contract then we know about. as there is really no way to link the numbers and no one to say they scratch there name on the left door and it's still there, I don't think anyone can ever say. it may be the central valley car that one may have been the one. someone knows for sure at the library what they did with the one given to them. that would be the way to link the car not a phony letter giving numbers that each department would not have used to describe the car. it's still a case of if you want it to be or not. nothing proved eather way with out taking the car apart
Jean-Marc Dugas
PCS Member
Sorry if I missed this somewhere in the discussions, but would it be safe to assume that if this car is not Mr. Kosoff’s car, he should still have it and someone could go see him and his car?
Thanks, John, for posting the scan of the letter that was printed in TPC.
I have called the Kennedy Library to find out what they know about this. They are checking into it and will get back to me. The one person I spoke to (not left a message with) seemed very willing to help.
I have called the Kennedy Library to find out what they know about this. They are checking into it and will get back to me. The one person I spoke to (not left a message with) seemed very willing to help.
John ED Renstrom
PCS Member
will I have to do the program at lions club tonight so guess what I'm talking on. rereading things this one phrase of Mr Davis popes out
"We also have considered the issue of why the Navy might be contacting Superior for information when the Navy had the ambulance in its possession. While the Navy could obviously perform a physical inspection of its own in reference to the markings on the vehicle, what they would not have had without an inquiry to Superior is the confirmation of the contract number and the Navy registration number leaving Superior as matching those that were found on the vehicle itself."
I would seem Mr Davis thinks that superior assigned the navy number to the car. the opposite is true. the navy number did not get put on the car until it got to the motor pool it was stationed at. some E-2 stencil it then and stamped the brass tag at that time. that's why the letters appear different on the tag. that's the reason the only numbers on the tag are the superior line number and the navy number. as the contract came from GAS they would have all that information. the navy had the car the tag was stamped with the navy number the superior number and the gsa contract number. the tag was attached to the car that had the other tags with those numbers. what else would superior be able to supply?? it was just a attempt to marry up the gm vin with the other numbers. the shame is if it's real this throws a lot of doubt on it.
as the Kosoff car was driven to meets it should have been licenced in calf. a simple check of the vin number should tell when that happened. also the transfer of ownership. you can't tell me that car 404 was never titled any were. it would not have been done by the navy or the library. but as property exchanged hands a bill of sale would have at least been generated. even if the library sold it to a salvage yard.
hope we can find something at the library. thanks Steve for checking into this.
"We also have considered the issue of why the Navy might be contacting Superior for information when the Navy had the ambulance in its possession. While the Navy could obviously perform a physical inspection of its own in reference to the markings on the vehicle, what they would not have had without an inquiry to Superior is the confirmation of the contract number and the Navy registration number leaving Superior as matching those that were found on the vehicle itself."
I would seem Mr Davis thinks that superior assigned the navy number to the car. the opposite is true. the navy number did not get put on the car until it got to the motor pool it was stationed at. some E-2 stencil it then and stamped the brass tag at that time. that's why the letters appear different on the tag. that's the reason the only numbers on the tag are the superior line number and the navy number. as the contract came from GAS they would have all that information. the navy had the car the tag was stamped with the navy number the superior number and the gsa contract number. the tag was attached to the car that had the other tags with those numbers. what else would superior be able to supply?? it was just a attempt to marry up the gm vin with the other numbers. the shame is if it's real this throws a lot of doubt on it.
as the Kosoff car was driven to meets it should have been licenced in calf. a simple check of the vin number should tell when that happened. also the transfer of ownership. you can't tell me that car 404 was never titled any were. it would not have been done by the navy or the library. but as property exchanged hands a bill of sale would have at least been generated. even if the library sold it to a salvage yard.
hope we can find something at the library. thanks Steve for checking into this.
This just keeps getting better, and better, and BETTER!!!!!!!
I just got off of the telephone with a representative from the Kennedy Museum (sorry Steve, I e-mailed them a few days ago not knowing you've already been in contact with them). They are well aware of this controversy and although they have no written proof (i. e. documentation) of its disposal, they are very sure the car has been destroyed, fulfilling the Kennedy Family's wishes.
2 page spread from the Barrett-Jackson Auction catalog:
Full sized scan:
http://www.tmcarphoto.com/jfkcatfull.jpg
Note that the write-up says the current owner obtained the car from a collector "located in California"...I knew I had read that somewhere, but I couldn't find it again.
It's like a connect-the-dots puzzle with one or two lines left...
Full sized scan:
http://www.tmcarphoto.com/jfkcatfull.jpg
Note that the write-up says the current owner obtained the car from a collector "located in California"...I knew I had read that somewhere, but I couldn't find it again.
It's like a connect-the-dots puzzle with one or two lines left...
Jeremy D. Ledford
PCS Volunteer Chapter President
Looking at that photo from that write up you can clearly tell the front door and fender are a darker paint shade!
That's OK, no problem. We're working on the same mission here, finding out the correct answers.
John ED Renstrom
PCS Member
the roof and center door and around the front door handle are lighter. but as they said it's proof enough for them to say the numbers match on the car. they also match the numbers on the documentation. as they are not providing the documentation or guaranteeing them, it good enough for them to promote the H out of it. but then our old buddy P.T. Barnum said it best.
to me just the fact that we now know that the car went to the library and was not sold at a government auction throws there documentation out the window. we have two sources of that. the letter sent to Dan and the conformation of the car being there to Jim.
to me just the fact that we now know that the car went to the library and was not sold at a government auction throws there documentation out the window. we have two sources of that. the letter sent to Dan and the conformation of the car being there to Jim.
Not sure what you're getting at here? I just went back and reread the whole thread and the links included, and I don't see any documentation from anyone that contradicts documentation from anyone else?
If we are to "believe everything we read", we can almost put together an unbroken history of the car, assuming there is only ONE car we are talking about. Here is how it COULD have played out:
Nov. 22, 1963 - Ambulance transports Kennedy's body from AF1 to Bethesda (TV Coverage)
Dec. 22, 1963 - Inquiry is made to Superior regarding serial numbers of Ambulance (BJ Documentation)
Jan. 1964 - Response from Superior linking VIN number of ambulance to Navy number (BJ Documentation)
??? Jan 1964 to Nov. 5, 1980 - Ambulance still owned by Navy?, and transferred to the Kennedy Library on 11/5/1980 (Brintlinger Letter)
Aug. 5 1985 - Library is granted permission to destroy car (Brintlinger letter)
???
1999 - "Kosoff car" starts showing up at SC PCS meets, purportedly found in a Sea Train container in Barstow CA. (per Mike McDonald and Kevin O'Connell)
2009-2010 - "Collector" in CA sells car to current owner, John Jensen (BJ Auction Catalog)
2011 - Car is presented for sale at the Barrett-Jackson 2011 Collector Car Auction
This is one possible timeline that could represent the history of the car, assuming Bobb Kosoff did indeed have the real car all along. The gray areas are:
If the car was transferred to the Kennedy Library FROM THE NAVY in 1980, where was it in all the years in between? Did the Navy really stash it away all that time?
How did it get from the library into Bobb Kosoff's hands?
The other option is that it really was destroyed as requested, and then Bobb Kosoff created a faithful replica and sold it to the current owner. To date, there has been no proof that the original car was actually destroyed, only the belief by some that it had. So far there has also been no documentation of what Mr. Kosoff's car looked like when it was originally acquired by him, only an account by Kevin O'Connell (who I am inclined to believe) that it was "acquired for a song". Pictures would be nice, if anyone has them. So far the only pictures I have seen of it have been of its "JFK" look, albeit with some extra lights and a siren.
I'd say it's about 50/50 right now as to whether it's real or not, but I don't see any documentation that flat-out contradicts any other documentation. Again, the library documentation only says that permission was granted for it to be destroyed, and that it was believed to have been, but it does not say that it actually was destroyed.