JFK Pontiac ambulance up for auction

All,

The following e-mail was sent, along with the documents and photos, to Steve Davis, President of Barrett-Jackson Auctions.

Let's see what happens now.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

sdavis@barrett-Jackson.com

Mr. Davis,

As I’m sure you are aware, members of the Professional Car Society have been interested in the ambulance you are auctioning this week in Scottsdale, reported to be the ambulance that transported President Kennedy’s body after his assassination. We have concerns and, now, evidence that the ambulance that is being auctioned may not be what it is claimed to be.

I have documentation that the actual ambulance was transferred from the US Navy to the John F. Kennedy Library of the National Archives in 1980, and was destroyed in 1986. This letter, written from the Naval Facilities Engineering Command to Congressman Robert Michel at the request of one of our members in 1988, notes that the Navy transferred the ambulance to the John F. Kennedy Library on November 5, 1980. This letter is attached.

I have documentation from the Kennedy Library, with witness signatures, showing its destruction on June 26, 1986. Witness signatures are included. In addition, this letter shows that the ambulance they received from the Navy has a different serial number than the one you are auctioning.

I have also received photos, attached, which show the Library’s ambulance being scrapped.

In addition, the letters Barrett-Jackson is using to document the ambulance’s authenticity, specifically the letter from the Surgeon General of the Navy requesting information, is subject to question. The letter was allegedly written by RADM Bart Hogan in 1963. However, RADM Hogan retired from the Navy in 1961. He could not have written such a letter in 1963 – at least without using the term USN-Ret. to indicate he was retired. Feel free to check for information on RADM Hogan on Wikipedia.

This documentation calls into question the claim that this is the actual ambulance that transported President Kennedy's body. I cannot say with certainty that it is not the actual ambulance, only that the documentation provided by the Kennedy Library shows the actual ambulance was destroyed. In addition to the documents which the current owner has provided, which are questionable, I do not believe that you can prove the authenticity of the ambulance beyond a reasonable doubt.

I have included the documents in question in this e-mail, but I will also forward to you the documents I have received from the Kennedy Library in their original format with the e-mail of origin. You may feel free to check these and e-mail the Archivists from the Kennedy Library if you wish.

My goal isn't to harm the reputation of anyone involved here, only to prove that this is (or isn't) the actual ambulance. Personally, as an ambulance history buff and ambulance collector, I was very intrigued when I first heard of this auction, and was interested in perhaps buying the car myself to add to my collection of 10 antique ambulances. However, information presented leads me to believe that the information is incorrect and indicates that the real Navy ambulance used to transport President Kennedy’s body was, indeed, scrapped in 1986. I hope you will consider this evidence prior to the auction.

To be clear, the information and opinions presented are my own and not that of the Professional Car Society, Inc.

Thanks. Take care.

Steve Lichtman
Member, Board of Directors
Professional Car Society
 
Todd Merrifield said:
Wow. Is there any aspect of President Kennedy's presidency that is NOT shrouded in mystery, or conspiracy?

So, in light of this new evidence, the real question that needs to be answered without a doubt is what was the VIN/serial number of the actual car that transported Kennedy? All we really know for sure is the number on the door...
Click to expand...
One more photo from the Kennedy Library, showing the car at the junkyard. Note the number on the door.
 

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Well if it was the car, or wasn't the car, it still sucks to see a beautiful piece of professional car history in a crusher. And it's a 63 to boot!!
 
Well, if the letters B-J has are not fakes than it looks like the wrong car was crushed. One way or another this will make for an interesting story in an upcoming issue of TPC. It shouldn't be to hard to prove the letters one way or another. I'm leaning towards the correct car being crushed at this point. Sad to see it being smashed!
 
The chances of the Navy holding onto the wrong car for 17 years before transfering it to the Kennedy Library is very doubtful. Also keep in mind that JFK was a former Navy officer, and the USN was most likely very careful in securing the correct ambulance as it had become part of Navy history. Not doing so would have been a career ender for those involved. No officer or NCO wants make an error of that magnitude.
 
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I haven't heard the "fat lady" sing yet, HOWEVER it certainly appears there is a very chubby young lady warming up in the wings!!!

I'm just sayin'!!!
 
Steve Lichtman said:
One more photo from the Kennedy Library, showing the car at the junkyard. Note the number on the door.
Click to expand...

That would appear to be the "money shot" right there. I highly doubt the library was staging a fake execution back in 1988. With the numbers removed on the side I was skeptical, but with the number on the rear I'd say it's highly likely the library aquired and destroyed the right target.

So, how much is a reallly nice clone worth?
 
Thanks to Steve Lichtman, we have this letter from the library. This is the PDF from above in Steve's post converted to a picture to make it easier to view.
 

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apology

Well, after reading the entire thread from start to finish AGAIN, I would like to extend a public apology to Ed Renstrom for questioning his assessment of the front end of the auction car.

I think the point I was trying to make is that it is tough to make any kind of judgement on the work done to a car just from a picture, but after looking at all this info again it is rather painfully obvious that the car was repainted from the doors forward. Sometimes I get a little carried away playing devil's advocate...
 
It appears that any argument has now been settled with Steve's documentation and photos. It will be interesting to see if this has any bearing on the auction. For what it's worth, Terry and I were at the auction today and I took a few photos of the areas in question (front fender, wheel wells, lower roof. I don't have photo posting privileges, so won't be able to post them. Paul, I can forward them to you, if you pm me with your email address, so you can post them.
 
Like others have said, with Steves documentation and photos that he was able to obtain I think we can safely say that the actual ambulance was destroyed and long gone and we can safely say, Case Closed!!!

Thank you Steve for finding what you did and sharing it here!
 
no I think you missed a lot. all that ties the numbers together were vary much in dispute with everyone except BJ. there statement was that they don't check the documation. only that the documation matches what the sell states it does on the car. the numbers present to BJ matched the numbers on the car . all the gm numbers on the car matched, the superior number match and the navy tag number matched the paperwork presented to BJ. good enough for them. now want to bet on it still crossing the block? thanks for a intertaining week everyone who did some leg work on this. now of course since the pictures of the car being crushed show no numbers there is still room for doubt for some people. :thankyou2:
 
Todd Merrifield said:
Well, after reading the entire thread from start to finish AGAIN, I would like to extend a public apology to Ed Renstrom for questioning his assessment of the front end of the auction car.

I think the point I was trying to make is that it is tough to make any kind of judgement on the work done to a car just from a picture, but after looking at all this info again it is rather painfully obvious that the car was repainted from the doors forward. Sometimes I get a little carried away playing devil's advocate...
Click to expand...

actually your right it is hard to tell what was done. a health discussion is fun. but to me it looked like the roof the center door and around the front door handle had some difference in color. poor job of spotting in. and the places were the old finish would have broken down. definitely some on the inner fender. but cleaning up rock chips could explain that. the claim it was all original just as it carried the president kind of chocked me up.
 
David Powers wouldn't have gotten it wrong.

Remember Dave Powers was Jack Kennedy's best friend. He was the museum archivist for a reason. He knew the history and he took it very seriously. If Dave Powers said the ambulance was destroyed you can believe it. One of my best friends is a former Kennedy Library board member. He assures me that they had the correct car and that it was destroyed as Steve has documented. Glad I am not the guy who is going to pay a fortune for a fake!!!
 
While watching Barrett-Jackson last evening as they panned through the show cars you could see the ambulance sitting off to the side. It will be interesting. :argue:
 
Thank you all for your comments.

One more photo, the dash, also from the Kennedy Museum. By the way, these are small versions of the photos suitable for the fourm here. I do have the full-size photos if anyone wants to see them more clearly.
 

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News from scottsdale!!!

All interested,

Besides my e-mail yesterday, one of the JFK researchers who has also been working on this, David Lifton, sent an e-mail this morning to Steve Davis of Barrett-Jackson. David's e-mail was much more strongly worded than mine, including comments about violating Federal law and FBI investigations. Boy did he get their attention.

Here is the response he received from Steve Davis (forwarded by Linda Strazzara of B-J on Davis' behalf), in it's entirety (my comments in a subsequent post):

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------ Forwarded Message
From: Linda Strazzara <LStrazzara@barrett-jackson.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 15:11:14 -0700
To: <dlifton@earthlink.net>
Cc: Steve Davis <sdavis@barrett-jackson.com>
Conversation: Response from Barrett-Jackson
Subject: Response from Barrett-Jackson

Mr. Lifton – Steve Davis is here onsite at the auction, but reviewed your email correspondence and has asked me to provide you with his response below. Please contact us if you have any questions.

Linda Strazzara
Barrett-Jackson Auction Co. LLC

**

Mr. Lifton,

Thank you for contacting us about the "JFK Ambulance" consigned to the Barrett-Jackson auction this week. As you are no doubt aware, there has been a great deal of discussion surrounding this vehicle by members of various collector car enthusiast groups as well as Kennedy researchers such as yourself.

We have attempted to conduct as much independent research as possible in the context of offering this vehicle for sale at our auction, and our efforts have included both a detailed physical inspection as well as the review of all documentation available to us. We do not hold ourselves out to be historians, and certainly not experts in the particular area of history surrounding the unfortunate events of November 1963 and the Kennedy assassination. Nevertheless, we have been immersed in reviewing and responding to inquiries such as yours for the past two weeks.

We take great pride in is our reputation in the collector car auction business, and I can assure you that we have no intention of presenting any misinformation about any vehicle we sell across our auction block. We work with each of our consignors, including the owner of this vehicle, to review the information provided and clarify or correct any representations as necessary. These efforts are ongoing up to the time a vehicle crosses the block and is announced to interested bidders in attendance, and this is certainly true in the context of this particular vehicle.

As of today’s date, we are planning a media briefing here at the event site on Friday morning. At this time, we will present an overview of the results of our own investigation and physical inspection as well as a summary of the documentation that we have reviewed in connection with this vehicle. We are planning to post video from this media briefing on our website with the description of the vehicle (which is in our sale as Lot #1277 on the auction list).

It's important to understand that Barrett-Jackson is not affirmatively making any representations as to the history or particular provenance of this car, and we will be clear about all of these facts with the bidders who register at auction to participate in the sale of this vehicle. What we are trying to do is uphold the high standard we've set for ourselves in following up on legitimate inquiries and questions related to a vehicle as important as the Kennedy ambulance. We are certain we will hear many other questions in the next several days as we prepare for the auction sale, and we will consider all of them in due course and will continue to use our best professional judgment in resolving any issues we deem to be material to the representation of the car.

Thank you for contacting us, and thank you for taking an interest in the collector car hobby.

Steve Davis
President
Barrett-Jackson Auction Co. LLC

From: Steve Davis [mailto:sdavis@barrett-jackson.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 9:44 AM



Steve Davis
President
Barrett-Jackson Auction Company, L.L.C.
7400 E. Monte Cristo
Scottsdale, AZ 85260

P. 480.421.6694
F. 480.421.6697
sdavis@barrett-Jackson.com
www.barrett-jackson.com <http://www.barrett-jackson.com>
 
My comments

This is good news!

I have never heard of them having a briefing to discuss the history of a car at this late date, during the auction. They are specifically going to address our concerns.

I specifically note Davis' comments:
"...clarify or correct any representations as necessary..."
"...Barrett-Jackson is not affirmatively making any representations as to the history or particular provenance of this car, and we will be clear about all of these facts ..."
They know this isn't correct now. They know they can no longer state that this is the real JFK ambulance. Yes, they are going to auction the ambulance as scheduled no matter what, but they are going to say that they don't know if it is or it isn't. We need to see what they actually say tomorrow.

This is how they save face all around. They don't piss off the seller who seems to be firmly convinced he has the real thing. They don't piss off the car hobby or the JFK history folks by claiming it is the real thing without a doubt. They don't piss off the future buyer who thinks he has something he doesn't, he's gonna know there is doubt. And they don't get the reputation of being wrong, just non-specific.

If they say they aren't sure, it's a mediocre win-win situation, the best that can happen to salvage the situation at this point for all concerned.

And, indeed, we who have a real interest in this have actually learned the true, final outcome of the ambulance. Sad to see it in the crusher, but we have the answer. And in my opinion, there will be a nice '63 Superior Pontiac Navy ambulance that will remain preserved as a replica of the JFK ambulance. I can live with that.
 
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