JFK Pontiac ambulance up for auction

The car was crushed because...........

...the events of that day were not the things they wanted Jack to be remembered for. They saw that ambulance as a morbid curiosity more than a historical object. The library is run by the archivist of the united states but the library foundation is controlled by the Kennedy family and their friends. Also the ambulance needed a lot more money spent on it to restore it than they wanted to spend. That is pretty much from the horses mouth. Anybody who has ever been in my garage will know what I mean by that.
 
Does anyone know WHY the library would crush the car...after the Navy held on to it so long and it is an important part of history? Is it possible that after the Library got the car from the Navy, they determined that it was really NOT the JFK ambulance so they crushed it? Would they really crush the car because Bobby Kennedy (who had been dead almost 20 years by then) wanted it crushed? If Bobby wanted the car crushed, wouldn't he have had that done in the 60's?

Did in fact the Library say they had the actual car that carried JFK or did the Library say they had a 1963 Pontiac ambulance and they disposed of it?
 
pack up a few posts starting about 158 and the letters are there. the navy transferred the actual car to the library in 80 they keep it till 85 then requested permission to dispose of the car. it was crushed and sold for scrap in jun of 85. 4 people witnessed the destruction of the car and signed a statement to that fact. they took pictures before and during then went home. filed the papers away. when they were asked for proof they produced them. about all that could have been salvaged from the last picture posted of the car was the dash plack and the superior ID tag. both were attached to the car with screws. I have no evidence that this was done. in truth if anyone had them off the car I would think it would have been talked about long before now.
 
Did in fact the Library say they had the actual car that carried JFK or did the Library say they had a 1963 Pontiac ambulance and they disposed of it?
You have to go back and read the documents posted here (I know it's a long thread now). The Navy said they transferred the ambulance (the actual one, which the Navy did keep track of) to the Library. The Library said they destroyed the ambulance. Also, the numbers are plainly visible in the one photo from the Library of the ambulance at the scrapyard. Again, as Brady noted, the curator of the Library was a friend of President Kennedy's, so there's no way this was the "wrong ambulance" that the Library received, and crushed.

As for why this "historic" ambulance was crushed, there are discussions in paperwork I received (which I didn't post as it wasn't particularly pertinent to this discussion) that, as early as 1974, the parties involved felt there was no positive historic value or investigative value in the car and it was only a morbid reminder. They discussed how to properly destroy the car back then to prevent it from being sensationalized.

...Would they really crush the car because Bobby Kennedy (who had been dead almost 20 years by then) wanted it crushed? If Bobby wanted the car crushed, wouldn't he have had that done in the 60's?

Remember, both Jackie Kennedy Onassis and Senator Edward Kennedy were very much alive and well when the car was destroyed in 1986. I'm sure they were very influential in the desire to memorialize the positive, not morbid, aspects of their husband's/brother's life.
 
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A few pages ago, Chuck Kramer requested I post the e-mail that David Lifton (JFK researcher and author) wrote to Steve Davis of Barrett-Jackson. With David's permission, it is posted below.

NOTE: The opinions expressed are specifically those of Mr. Lifton, this is not the opinion of the Professional Car Society, or of me. It's been my goal to post the information we have received in research and point out the errors in the documentation that has accompanied the ambulance to B-J. Neither I nor the PCS stand ready to accuse anyone of anything illegal, as we don't know who is responsible and no one in PCS is a legal expert on these matters. Again, these are Mr. Lifton's opinions.

Also, the font is small as the letter is long, that's my choice.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: David S. Lifton [mailto:dlifton@earthlink.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 6:32 AM
To: Steve Davis
Subject: "Kennedy ambulance" scheduled for auction in Scottsdale

Dear Steve Davis,

I'm not much of a car buff, but your Scottsdale auction has been brought to my attention, and, in particular, the naval ambulance that supposedly met Air Force One when it returned from Dallas on November 22, 1963.

As the author of BEST EVIDENCE--an important book on the Kennedy assassination, which was a Book of the Month Club selection, a NY Times best seller, and a book which stayed in print (through four separate publishers) for 17 years, I have a keen interest in these events (and in that ambulance).

Chapter 16 of Best Evidence --devoted to events pertaining to that ambulance--describes what happened when that ambulance (carrying Jacqueline Kennedy, and Atty General Robert Kennedy, and the flag draped coffin) arrived at the front entrance of Bethesda Naval Hospital at 6:55 PM on the night of November 22, 1963.

I don't want to bore you with the details-they are really not important to this letter--except to say that immediately after the ambulance dropped off Jacqueline Kennedy and RFK, there was considerable confusion during the next hour, in connection with the delivery of the coffin to the rear entrance, where the morgue was located. In fact, the Navy used two ambulances during the next hour--one being "the decoy"--and that entire story (why a "decoy" was used, and what happened in the hour before the coffin was delivered and the autopsy began)--is what my chapter 16 is all about.

Anyway, when I heard about your auction, and learned that the documentation offered in support of the authenticity of this vehicle was a letter from one Admiral Hogan, who was NOT the Surgeon General at the time, I immediately became suspicious that this ambulance being auctioned was not in fact the genuine article, but rather some "twin" that was restored, and that someone was now seeking to make money by foisting this vehicle on the public as "the real deal."

No doubt if it was the genuine vehicle, it might command a price in the hundreds of thousands of dollars; but if it is inauthentic, then what we have here is not just a "restored" vehicle, but a crime.

I pointed out to others pursuing this matter that if this vehicle proved to be inauthentic, then it wasn't just a matter of someone having fabricated a letter from "Admiral Hogan". But that, in addition, the forgery went deeper: that whoever did this had to fabricate a false naval identification plate and affix it to the vehicle.

So, if the vehicle was a "twin" and not the genuine article, this would not longer be some kind of prank, but serious fraud, involving the falsification of a "naval ID" for a military vehicle. I don't know exactly what laws would be violated, but surely a most elementary analysis would indicate that, if the mails were used, we are immediately talking about conspiracy, mail fraud, etc.

Of course, this was all somewhat hypothetical until the events of the last 24-48 hours.

Attached is a scan of a color photograph --obtained by Steve Lichtman (of the Professional Car Society) from official files at the Kennedy library--showing that this specific naval vehicle was destroyed by crushing on June 26, 1986, at a Boston junkyard, after approval was sought to do so from the Archivist of the United States.

Also attached is a JFK Library chronology of the key events pertaining to the destruction of this vehicle.

The person who assisted the government archivists in pursuing this matter is the aforementioned Steve Lichtman of the Professional Car Society; and these documents were just sent to him in the last 48 hours. ( You can reach Steve Lichtman—who is on the Board of Directors of the Professional Car Society, at 240-876-0529.)

Now that it is--for all practical purposes--proven that the original ambulance was destroyed on June 26, 1986, it appears evident that the one being auctioned cannot be authentic.

But more than that--it seems to me at least, and based on the evidence offered in support of its authenticity, that it is all fabricated.

This means that the Hogan letter is a forgery.

It also means that the naval ID plate affixed to this vehicle is a forgery.

Specifically, that means that someone went to the trouble of counterfeiting this naval ID plate, and then affixing it to this vehicle.

While I wouldn't want to say that fabricating a naval ID plate was in the same league as counterfeiting United States currency, it is certainly not a proper thing to do, and is very possible illegal.

Since I am not a lawyer, and have never worked in a prosecutor's office, I do not know how many individual crimes were committed in connection with the fabrication of this vehicle, and its fraudulent presentation as being genuine. Certainly, there is conspiracy, and intent to defraud, and perhaps there are other laws that were violated since someone went to the trouble of falsifying the naval ID plate, which is (or was) after all, government property.

Perhaps, if you would call the FBI, or the Department of Justice, they might have people who could advise you on this matter--i.e., on the subject of just how many illegalities were committed here, that resulted in this bogus vehicle sporting all this bogus "authentication."

Of course, if —despite all the evidence of inauthenticity (not to mention deliberate fraud)—the auction of this vehicle still goes forward, I would think that the seller would have serious legal exposure.

What I do know is that anyone who went to the trouble of fabricating all this evidence, has little respect for history; and, specifically, the iconology connected with a major event in this country's history: the assassination of President Kennedy.

Anyone who had respect for history, or for the seriousness of this event, would never set out to create a counterfeit vehicle, plus the bogus documents and naval ID plate that attest (falsely) to its authenticity.

I do hope this item will not be auctioned--and that perhaps you will consider reporting the details to the authorities who might conduct an investigation to identify the perpetrators of this fraud.

Sincerely,

David S. Lifton
Author, BEST EVIDENCE
 
This article from Jalopnik is getting a HUUUGE amount of circulation:

http://jalopnik.com/5739333/president-kennedys-ambulance-is-a-fake

it includes a link to this thread. I've noticed the thread hit count is going up by a couple hundred views an hour.


Not sure what I was expecting to see here...maybe a series of holes that match the bolt pattern of a fender-mounted siren? Anyway, here is a picture my friend sent me of the fender of the ambulance:

jfkfender.jpg
 
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Jfk

All I can say is that this has been " One Amazing Journey ." Due to the diligence of some within this organization, history has been changed or preserved depending on how you look at it. The time and hard work put into this I'm sure is staggering and all involved are to be commended. :thumb:
 
This article from Jalopnik is getting a HUUUGE amount of circulation:

http://jalopnik.com/5739333/president-kennedys-ambulance-is-a-fake

it includes a link to this thread. I've noticed the thread hit count is going up by a couple hundred views an hour.


Not sure what I was expecting to see here...maybe a series of holes that match the bolt pattern of a fender-mounted siren? Anyway, here is a picture my friend sent me of the fender of the ambulance:

jfkfender.jpg

I was hoping your friend would get a photo of the underside of the fender. It would seem that we could learn more from that. Who is gonna got to all the trouble of making the underside look "perfect"???
 
This is good news!

I have never heard of them having a briefing to discuss the history of a car at this late date, during the auction. They are specifically going to address our concerns.

I specifically note Davis' comments:
"...clarify or correct any representations as necessary..."
"...Barrett-Jackson is not affirmatively making any representations as to the history or particular provenance of this car, and we will be clear about all of these facts ..."

They know this isn't correct now. They know they can no longer state that this is the real JFK ambulance. Yes, they are going to auction the ambulance as scheduled no matter what, but they are going to say that they don't know if it is or it isn't. We need to see what they actually say tomorrow.

This is how they save face all around. They don't piss off the seller who seems to be firmly convinced he has the real thing. They don't piss off the car hobby or the JFK history folks by claiming it is the real thing without a doubt. They don't piss off the future buyer who thinks he has something he doesn't, he's gonna know there is doubt. And they don't get the reputation of being wrong, just non-specific.

If they say they aren't sure, it's a mediocre win-win situation, the best that can happen to salvage the situation at this point for all concerned.

And, indeed, we who have a real interest in this have actually learned the true, final outcome of the ambulance. Sad to see it in the crusher, but we have the answer. And in my opinion, there will be a nice '63 Superior Pontiac Navy ambulance that will remain preserved as a replica of the JFK ambulance. I can live with that.


Steve, thank you for your efforts, letters, etc I find the evidence very convincing, if not conclusive. It has been my belief that Barrett-Jackson would pull this car from the auction, due to doubts cast on it, at a minimum. They say that they are not representing this car as the JFK ambulance, it is my belief that they have. With sufficient evidence to support the theories put forward in this thread alone, the auction should pull the ambulance. Even if they announce the fact that there is doubt surrounding it's authenticity, someone will absolutely pay way too much money for this ambulance. I doubt that Barrett-Jackson will be able to change people's thinking sufficiently, to bring the bid price in line with what a 1963 Superior Pontiac naval ambulance is really worth, in my opinion that might be around $30K. Even if they announce this ambulance as a clone, it will still bring many times that amount. Furthermore, the buyer will possibly continue representing it as "the real deal" which it most likely is not. It seems to me that with this car, everyone loses.

I wish this car was the real one, just to watch it bring a ton of money.
 
anyone hoping to make a mill of a 100,000 investment would due both sides I still can't help but wounder why every article keeps saying that the lettering on the back door of the crushed car matches the film footage of the car used. they don't . nor do either match the letter of the car being sold as it. the numbers are all the same. but the crushed car shows the changes that the navy made over time. lettering added and the crosses added. there is no doubt to me that they crushed the right car. to many people witnessed that event. for everyone to keep silent. to me it's just something that was used at that time like a chair he sat in waiting to give a speech. why the hype on the cars I don't know. anyone know what happened to air force one. he was in that longer them either of the cars.
 
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anyone hoping to make a mill of a 100,000 investment would. I still can't help but wounder why every article keeps saying that the lettering on the back door of the crushed car matches the film footage of the car used. they don't . nor do either match the letter of the car being sold as it. there is no doubt that they crushed the right car. to many people witnessed that event. for everyone to keep silent. most people agree with me it's just something that was used at that time like a chair he sat in waiting to give a speech. why the hype on the cars I don't know. anyone know what happened to air force one. he was in that longer them either of the cars.

Question asked, and answered......



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Boeing VC-137C SAM 26000

Note: This aircraft is located in the Presidential Gallery on a secure part of Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. Click here for visiting instructions.

This U.S. Air Force Boeing VC-137C aircraft (civilian designation 707-320B) was the first jet made specifically for use by the President of the United States. Built in 1962, it served many presidents over three decades, carrying heads of state, diplomats and other dignitaries and officials on many historic journeys.

Information from Google.com
 
Just something I noticed.... The splice in the rear bumper of the BJ car does not match the bumper splice of the junked car. This is best seen looking at the rear view of the crushed car as compared to the rear view of the BJ car shown in PontiacsOnline.com... The splice of the crushed car is very clearly dead centre in the middle of the bumper, while the splice of the BJ car is closer to the drivers side - certainly not dead centre... One more small indication that these are not the same car....

In all, this continues to be a very interesting thread....!!!

Susan Dugas.
 
Interesting Update

I spoke this morning with Karen Abramson, the Chief Curator from the Kennedy Library. Obviously, they are very concerned about the auction, as they know what happened to the real ambulance, and have the documentation to prove it. She is appreciative of the PCS's efforts in this, and I thanked her for her staff's help earlier in the week with the documents and photos. She will also be contacting Barrett-Jackson and the media with their concerns.

She relayed an interesting story to me, which she said I could share here - and which she received permission from the History Channel TV network to share. Apparently, earlier this year, the History Channel was going to do a story/show about the so-called "real JFK ambulance", which had been displayed this summer at a military vehicle show. The folks from the History Channel contacted the current owner of the car. Apparently, he REFUSED to speak to them. Not just didn't return calls, but refused.

Shortly after this was when he consigned the car to the auction.

One wonders, if you own a very historic vehicle, why would you refuse to talk to the TV folks about it? Wouldn't you want to show it off? And why put it up for sale immediately thereafter? Hmmmm.....

The History Channel apparently cancelled their project on the car. I wonder if they'd be interested in the real story of what really happened to the ambulance, as well as covering this month's controversy?
 
Steve, I also want to thank you and everyone else who has contributed to the investigation and discussion on this topic. Thanks also for allowing the documentation to be reviewed first hand by posting it in this thread.

It has been very exciting to follow along, and I don't hear the fat lady singing yet! :applause:
This would indeed make a great subject for a History Channel program.
 
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