JFK Pontiac ambulance up for auction

a 6 and a 8 are really close in a hand stamp. a 0 and a 6 are not but it does bring up the point why did then not present a clear picture of the tag?? wave it around let everyone there play with it but not post one clear pictures of there key piece of evidence.

I was going to let someone else bring up the old antenna patch. glad you did Just like Bob's. we won't go into how dumb a location that was either to put the whip. one more thing you don't find on the car in 63 or the crusher.

I'm just ribbin' ya a little bit, but from the pictures I've seen the stamped 6, 8, 9, and 0 all look similar depending on what angle you are viewing them from. I would argue that you have to be pretty smart to be a doctor, smart enough to know not to list a high-profile car for auction with the wrong numbers on one of the only identifying tags on it.

If someone wants to contact Bobb Kosoff for comment that would be great, just to put that question to rest once and for all. I think most people are convinced they are the same car. Either that or someone did an AMAZING job of cloning Bobb's car...
 
PCS on CNN

We are mentioned on a CNN news story today:

"In December, shortly after Barrett-Jackson announced it would sell the car, some antique ambulance buffs began posting on the website "Friends of the Professional Car Society" noting that the Kennedy ambulance had supposedly been destroyed in the 1980s at the request of the Kennedy family. "Professional car" is a term for passenger car-based ambulances, hearses, livery cars and the like".

www.cnn.com
 
mirror mount

Paul: I noticed the same things.... I am now 100% certain that the one auctioned off last night WAS the Bobb Kosoff (CA) Car! MM

Paul and others: Although I can't find the official picture now.... didn't "THE" Pontiac pictured on the runway have a Small LH Rear View Mirow mounted directly on the rear of Unity Spotlight? If so that may be why the current pitures have Unity (Deck Light) "Button" that Paul noticed in it's place to fill the hole?
 
I think most people are convinced they are the same car. Either that or someone did an AMAZING job of cloning Bobb's car...

Convinced? Very. Or truly AMAZED at the extent someone went through to clone the replica of the real JFK ambulance. Not only did they perfectly clone the Kosoff car, from the door lettering, to the beacon, to the red spotlight, and so on, they even got the front seat's wear and tear correct. First picture is a known photo of the Kosoff car. The second is of the car sold last night. They perfectly duplicated the dents on the metal trim and the creases in the seat....
:clubem:
 

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Hello all, fascinating thread, I've been following for the past week or two. Excellent work.

My interest in old vehicles is more along the lines of Model Ts and Horseless Carriages (and a couple of fire vehicles) so I won't be a regular here. And, frankly, I need to participate in yet another forum like I need a hole in the head.

I registered today in hopes of posting a new photo relevant to this discussion. That doesn't seem possible — perhaps there's a probationary period before attachments are permitted.

Can anyone suggest how this newcomer can post a photo? Maybe I could send it to a regular and you could post on my behalf...
 
Hello all, fascinating thread, I've been following for the past week or two. Excellent work.

My interest in old vehicles is more along the lines of Model Ts and Horseless Carriages (and a couple of fire vehicles) so I won't be a regular here. And, frankly, I need to participate in yet another forum like I need a hole in the head.

I registered today in hopes of posting a new photo relevant to this discussion. That doesn't seem possible — perhaps there's a probationary period before attachments are permitted.

Can anyone suggest how this newcomer can post a photo? Maybe I could send it to a regular and you could post on my behalf...

Chriis - Feel free to send it to me at sireno@comcast.net for posting.

Robert

PCS Website Administrator
 
Absolutely fascinating and yes, kudos for bringing forth the Kennedy Library information and other facts. I've thoroughly enjoyed the sleuthing and polite discussions that have accompanied this thread. As a sometime historic vehicle buff, the knowledge base here at the Friends of PCS is impressive, as is the reach of the organization.

Just some thoughts that are still running through my mind on this 'mystery':

No question in my mind the consignor acquired both '63 Pontiac Superior ambulances from "Central Valley Classics in Fresno, California... noting several references to the 2nd, US Army 'basket case' Pontiac Superior ambulance that he still owns. That goes beyond coincidence.

No question in my mind that the '63 Pontiac Superior auctioned at B-J was clearly not, "one of the finest examples of an unrestored ambulance from that time period,” , given it clearly was modified several times and had been previously been redone (restored would be an overstatement) inside and out, to make it suitable for it's brief cameo appearances in R.F.K. and The Women of Camelot. It's curious that the B-J folks didn't push back on the "unrestored" condition description offered by the consignor once they inspected the vehicle.

However, it does appear that there are still many unanswered questions, not the least of which is how the '63 Pontiac Superior sold at B-J carries a nomenclature plate with matching VIN numbers and the US Navy serial number 94-49196 if, what clearly appeared to me to be the 'actual' '63 Pontiac Superior that was on the tarmac at Andrews on Nov 22, 1963 went to the car crusher in 1986. As noted in the photo / numbering comparison offered in Post #189, the stenciling on the '63 Pontiac sent to the crusher 'appears' in my eyes to be identical to the used on Nov 22, 1963, never mind showing proper wear and distress for a 23-year old vehicle.

The one piece of evidence that's essential to this mystery is a clear photo of the US Navy nomenclature plate -- or perhaps the actual plate if it's in the possession of the Kennedy Library archives -- from the '63 Pontiac Superior destroyed in 1986. One would hope that somewhere in the two rolls of film shot by Mr. Powers that nomenclature plate was captured. Unless and until that comes forward, it's a Mexican Standoff.

Everything else remains interesting and curious, including the FOIA documents from the Navy's former Surgeon General and the information that came forward from Superior vis-a-via PHS.

Thanks again for maintaining such a civil and respectful forum... always a breath of fresh air to encounter enthusiasts who prefer facts and evidence to innuendo and hearsay.
 
Now...what's next? has anyone seen the '77 Miller-Meteor that took Elvis to his grave and supposedly burned on the side of the road years ago? Baskin-Robbins Auctions may have it up soon...

In the "word" of Samatha on Bewitched, Weeeeelllllllllllll............:batterUp:
 
Like Steve I to was away doing non-Kennedy ambulance related things yesterday and last night and away out of my basement unable to blog about something and a subject I know absolutely know nothing about as I set and inhaled my stock of Twinkies and play World of Warcraft trying to defeat the Narthal tribe in the west woods of Zagurthalua!

I did get to watch that "pony show" press conference finally and I was not impressed how it was played out at all as to me it looked like a group of better than thous waving a data plate that took off the car (bet they didn't let anyone get a close look at it ether) around and telling everybody were right your wrong and were only after major dollars and high ratings as we run this car across the auction block and the consperacist are just pulling stuff out of there asses just to dis-prove what this car actually is to us! That is what got to me most about the entire saga! And the sunglasses thing, yep he's hiding something! To me their not in to the cars for the hobby or the hobbyist, their only in it for the $$$$$$'s. Up till now I really liked what came across the block and watching the auctions and thought one day I would really like to go out to AZ and watch one of the events in person but I don't think I really would want to any more even more after what transpired over the Kennedy ambulance and I too have say I too have lost some respect as well for B-J. And for the price, $120K, HAHAA! Hope I'm not offending anyone but I'm just calling it as I see it!

I to have enjoyed and thanks to Steve Mr. Hoch and Mr. Lifton again for all the have done and thanks to everyone for sharing their thoughts observations and ideas on the subject even though were just a bunch of basement bloggers and don't know what were talking about!
 
Here are the comments by the website "Firegeezer" on the Kennedy ambulance and the Professional Car Society (whatever that is).

http://firegeezer.com/2011/01/21/is-the-kennedy-ambulance-a-fake/

Hey Robert, I noticed a few readers from professionalcarsociety.org checking out Is The “Kennedy Ambulance” a Fake? article Bill posted Friday morning.

Appreciate the interest, but let me clarify the effort Firegeezer.com has done to clarify the details and the role of PCS:

FRIDAY

Professional Car Society Posted a few hours later, edited Saturday after a late night email from Vice President Paul Steinberg.


“unable to either confirm or refute with certainty”
posted a couple of hours after Barrett-Jackson issued their Friday press release.

SATURDAY

Professional Car Society article corrected Posted Steinberg's email and link to this PCS thread.

The second email from Steinberg details some of the history with PCI and the professionalcar.org website. Pretty messy and dramatic. Made SECOND edit to UPDATED: Professional Car Society

SUNDAY


“The scrutiny was more than I bargained for”
Featured Steve Lichtman with this item, including posting his entire wrap-up post from Saturday night.

I appreciate that professional car collectors seek accuracy and authenticity.

Want to make sure you see ALL of what we wrote about PCS this weekend.

With almost 31,000 views of this thread, I would say awareness of PCS is elevated.

Mike Ward

day job: Assistant Professor of Emergency Medicine
(See what happens when you let a paramedic/firefighter go to university!)

side gig: "FossilMedic" on Firegeezer.com

I cannot blog in a basement, since I live in an apartment :)
 
IF we look at the picture right before the picture of the vehicle in the crusher we see thee gentlemen around the ambulance -one with a large file, open in his hand leading me to think that he must be from the museum or the govt. documenting this event as it is a big file. just food for thought???
 
so does all this just drop and the car disappear?? or will the kennedy library give a statement. they could lay this to rest. oh not enough for the ya but what if people, but the majority of normal people that don't think the rest of the world is plotting agents them.
yes they have the evidence yes they have two rolls of film shot that day. they could have the tag off the car. but silence on there part makes BJ the good guys and us still bloggers in basements that know nothing about cars.

BJs press conference was so much BS and there statement was let the bidders decide. (they did) Ms Brown statement of there impeccable reputation as good enough for her. put the lid on it. BJ good guys, basement blogger scroungers. I'm giving the car to the Smithsonian (like they would touch it). was a nice ending to her endorsement of them. played good to the news who now at least are say alleged kennedy car.

but a news release from the library would do as much as the Warren report did to quill rumors now. at least we have shown everyone that cares were to go find the information. bet Doc wishes he knew that sooner. talk about a man between a rock and a hard place. a pawn in front of big business was all he was.
 
...SUNDAY


“The scrutiny was more than I bargained for”
Featured Steve Lichtman with this item, including posting his entire wrap-up post from Saturday night.

Mike Ward

day job: Assistant Professor of Emergency Medicine
(See what happens when you let a paramedic/firefighter go to university!)

side gig: "FossilMedic" on Firegeezer.com

I cannot blog in a basement, since I live in an apartment :)
Wow, Mike, interesting, thanks for carrying our information.

I don't mind that you posted my post on Firegeezer, but that's a little freaky to me that you posted the picture of me and my dog from Facebook. Was that really necessary? I suppose permission is no longer necessary in this internet age, but it remains a courtesy.

BTW, I had permission from the Kennedy Library folks to post all the photos I posted, including those with people in them.
 
Perhaps Steve Lichtman can follow up with the folks at the Kennedy Library?

Clearly, if the Kennedy Library has the nomenclature plate or a photo of that plate, it would be a rather simple process to compare the "REGISTRATION NO. USN" to the one on the Scottsdale '63 Pontiac Superior. Sadly, the #FSN cited on the destruction certificate is of little value since both vehicles should have carried the same 11-digit stock number. And, in fact, if you look at the photos of the nomenclature plate on the Scottsdale '63, it's there as well: SNS C-2310-516-9981. SNS (Standard Navy Stock.. number) was simply the precursor name to Federal Stock Number (FSN) and the current National Stock Number (NSN) acroynms.

Again, that US Navy Serial Number is the missing piece of evidence that would confirm if there were two ambulances bearing the same serial number (which would bring about an entirely new set of issues) or a different number that did not match the numbers painted on the exterior of the car.

If you believe the conspiracy theories are factual, then there would have been two '63 ambulances involved in the events of Nov 22, 1963 and both could have technically been used to transport Kennedy's remains. That one of those was destroyed does not negate the historical value of the second and may, in fact, increase it's historical value if the nomenclature plate is authentic and unaltered.

IMHO, I think the buyer(s) ultimately decided the historical value was real, as one way or the other they have an authentic '63 Pontiac Superior that was somehow tied to the events on Nov 22, 1963.

Just my .02.
 
Steve's going to a FF LODD Funeral tomorrow. Then he's gonna take a nap. This has been very hectic to say the least, and the fact that the controversy continues after the sale is amazing to me.

My apologies and condolences.

It was merely a logical follow-on to what may have been a rhetorical question posed by Mr. Renstrom.

Peace.
 
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