I honestly think he would have gotten more if he just told them it was a clone of the original
JFK Pontiac ambulance up for auction
- Thread starter Tony Blair
- Start date
I honestly think he would have gotten more if he just told them it was a clone of the original
If he had done that I don't think they would have listed it. Again just my opinion...
Kent Dorsey
PCS Member / Funeral Director
a big thanks to gentlemen Lichtman and Hoch in particular for their careful study and fair wordsmith skills..
Now...what's next? has anyone seen the '77 Miller-Meteor that took Elvis to his grave and supposedly burned on the side of the road years ago? Baskin-Robbins Auctions may have it up soon...
Now...what's next? has anyone seen the '77 Miller-Meteor that took Elvis to his grave and supposedly burned on the side of the road years ago? Baskin-Robbins Auctions may have it up soon...
We got pics of that burned out shell too! It was crushed in '89. Few more years and we can trot that one out also!
Scott Amsler - Deceased 1979 - 2018
March 30, 1979 - August 4, 2018
:weneedpics_smi:
I did. Laughed a little too. It's funny when you rehearse a story all week and then blow it when you're in front of a camera. So if I understood the Doctor's explanation as it's unfolded over the week, he bought it from a California collector, who also owned a junk yard in Kansas where this unrestore, yet mint, ambulance was sitting, even though nothing physically matches the original? I guess some people have all the luck!
By the way, I can find the new owner a much cheaper "mystery" if they want. And is it just me, or did Barrett-Jackson seem to refer to our club's investigation as information gathered by "conspiracy theorists." Maybe reading into what they said too much, but seems like they worked really hard to downplay any information uncovered to contradict what they wanted to say...
John ED Renstrom
PCS Member
wait a minute complete and un restored or was it?? the more they talk the deeper the hole they dug. I should have used them I only got 10,000 for mine.
PCS Mentioned:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIl8ULxLVBw[/ame]
Interview with John Jensen:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayzI4-EGCms[/ame]
Another TV report:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hw5y8DX6_c[/ame]
Yet another story of how it was acquired:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oVmgFJ_m-A[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIl8ULxLVBw[/ame]
Interview with John Jensen:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayzI4-EGCms[/ame]
Another TV report:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hw5y8DX6_c[/ame]
Yet another story of how it was acquired:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oVmgFJ_m-A[/ame]
WFAA-TV Dallas / Fort Worth did a great job of investigative reporting on this story. Watch and listen to the video for the comments from Allan Goodrich, long-time archivist for the Kennedy Library.
http://www.wfaa.com/news/Questions-surround-JFK-ambulance-claim-114419664.html
http://www.wfaa.com/news/Questions-surround-JFK-ambulance-claim-114419664.html
Last edited:
Kudos to PCs...
I just want to thank PCS for their hard charging investigative skills. BJ apparently chose money over truth, even casting shadows on professional museum employee & collectors. A couple of things I notices that is apparent Adm Hogan couldn't spell to save his life or even proof read his letters. How does one spell assassination wrong if you purport to be connected to it?
The JFK Library is a Presidential Library and as such it is administered by the National Archives. Who else would know what lies in the dust bin of history. Those photos found will eventually prove beyond a shadow of doubt that this car was faked. I'm sure that dash plaque photo could under go enhancement by some other government agency like NASA, if its not already being done.
What does the library or the archives gain? Its apparent that the ambulance stayed in service probably a number of years before someone in the Navy thought is had historical merit. It was stored away for years. Why the decision was to deaccession & destroy? Perhaps to keep it from becoming a morbid curiosity. What was the historic value? Does it (the car) tell the story more than the films of the day.
Again I believe the PCS will be vindicated once a few things are dug out of the files . Good work guys.
I just want to thank PCS for their hard charging investigative skills. BJ apparently chose money over truth, even casting shadows on professional museum employee & collectors. A couple of things I notices that is apparent Adm Hogan couldn't spell to save his life or even proof read his letters. How does one spell assassination wrong if you purport to be connected to it?
The JFK Library is a Presidential Library and as such it is administered by the National Archives. Who else would know what lies in the dust bin of history. Those photos found will eventually prove beyond a shadow of doubt that this car was faked. I'm sure that dash plaque photo could under go enhancement by some other government agency like NASA, if its not already being done.
What does the library or the archives gain? Its apparent that the ambulance stayed in service probably a number of years before someone in the Navy thought is had historical merit. It was stored away for years. Why the decision was to deaccession & destroy? Perhaps to keep it from becoming a morbid curiosity. What was the historic value? Does it (the car) tell the story more than the films of the day.
Again I believe the PCS will be vindicated once a few things are dug out of the files . Good work guys.
John ED Renstrom
PCS Member
there was a reason they toned things down. a reason the former owner would not say who he got the car from or were the documentation came from. if you know for 99.9% that what you have is real you have no problem showing how it got into you hands. I don't think he is altered any thing on the car or forged any documents himself. but I would like to know if he paid anyone for the papers he got? but the one interview did finally show a clear image of the data plate. maybe I cant read but I don't see 94-49196 on it
Attachments
Shoot...I don't know why I didn't tell my buddy that was there to get a good picture of the dash tag...
Darren Bedford
PCS Member
The car will likely be there tomorrow !
Maybe Len Langlois can get a photo of it.
That would be great !
Darren
Maybe Len Langlois can get a photo of it.
That would be great !
Darren
Brad Ross
PCS Michigan Chapter President
I'm not seeing it either, Ed.
It isn't very clear, but the number on that plate looks like it could be different.
Ed, I agree it is hard to make out in the low quality internet video, but I paused that clip at a few different places and it does look like the correct numbers are there...the last two are tough to make out, but if you pause it in the right spot you can see that they are 96. The rest are clearer to see. I can't imagine them going to all this trouble and not expect people to notice wrong numbers on the most important piece of evidence they have.
John ED Renstrom
PCS Member
check out the last 3 in he engine number to. they claimed the gm number ended in 767 . so tell me how many of these tags did they have ? was there a reason they removed it from the car and were carrying it around in there pocket. here is the shot of the one from there first add you tell me if there the same tag. I say they are but you can't read it in the fist shot. not tell you start comparing with the one off the video taken at the auction. I'm with Craig on the library having the tag off the crushed car. if this tag from the vido is the one off the car then this is not a fake passed off it's a scam. the numbers a 16 apart also
Attachments
I think who ever the guy is who bought it, has way too much money in his pockets. but then again look at some of the prices that are coming out of B.J..........nuts!
I wouldn't put too much weight into these low-res pictures, especially the ones that are captured from low-res internet video. The tag is probably difficult to read even in person, let alone in a picture that is probably several generations removed from the original. Again I say that tag is a pretty important detail to have right, whether you are trying to prove your car is real or, more importantly, if you are trying to pass off a fake. For it to get this far you can be sure that a seriously interested party is going to see the right numbers on that tag.
Post-Auction Thought
All,
Well, this battle over the Scottsdale ambulance and the alleged JFK connection is over, so I wanted to say a couple things while we still have the attention of those who are visiting but probably won’t think about old ambulances again.
In my mind, we ended in a draw. The Scottsdale ambulance was auctioned for a ridiculous sum of money. It ends with a “can’t say it is, can’t say it isn’t” decision on the part of Barrett-Jackson, and, as such, probably in the mind of the general public. It’s positive for “us” only in the respect that the Scottsdale ambulance is no longer “certainly” the JFK ambulance, it's just a "mystery". Unfortunately, I think it’s a matter of time before we fight this battle again.
PCS President Rick Duffy thanked me for my efforts tonight. You’re welcome. I got some files and made a few calls and e-mails, really anything anyone could have done (and anything Steve Davis or his professional staff should have done). But I didn’t do this by myself. So while I have the outsiders’ attention, I just wanted to say some words of thanks to others.
JFK researchers Paul Hoch and David Lifton. They are amateur researchers like us but found a lot of information from the JFK assassination point of view. They contacted me for help, I’d never heard of them before. They also pointed out the “error” that Rear Admiral Hogan retired from the Navy two years before the letter he “signed” was written, a key point in refuting the documentation supplied with the car. Paul also called the PCS forums “civil”!
The John F. Kennedy Presidential Library in Boston, specifically, Head Archivist Karen Abramson, Audiovisual Archivist Laurie Austin and Archivist Maura Porter. They had the letters and photos all the time, it’s all public domain information. And when asked, they produced it all with lightning speed, graciously. I mentioned to Laurie that the one piece of evidence that would answer all the questions would be if there was a photo of the ambulance in the crusher. In about 15 minutes, all the photos were in my inbox.
Justin Hyde and Jalopnik.com. I’m not familiar with the website or blog, but after he published his story about the Scottsdale ambulance possibly being a “fake”, it was picked up by a lot of news outlets across the country. And thanks for mentioning the PCS and the ProfessionalCarSociety.org website.
Barrett-Jackson Auction Co., specifically Steve Davis and Craig Jackson. They backed off their initial claims to a point, and actually did show the Library letter and the photos of the ambulance being crushed on their televised broadcast of the auction – quite classy and surprising to me since they disagreed. But despite being “ranked in the Top 100 Most Ethical Companies” as advertised on their website, they proved that the desire for profit still exceeds the desire for truth and historical correctness. Frankly, the legwork should have been done by them, not by us. And Steve Davis gave the dash plaque a good waving and airing out, perhaps it won’t be put back.
PCS members Tony Blair, for being the first to point out to PCS that this was even coming up, Dwayne Brooks, who initiated contact with Steve Davis, and everyone who posted to the thread with good information or questions to be answered. Some of the questions our members asked were questions we didn’t know the answers to, but we looked for and found them. Most important to this discussion is member Dan Brintlinger, who first asked the question in 1988 and got the answer. The letter he got from Congressman Michel and the Navy pointed the direction for everything else. If I forgot anyone specific, I'm SORRY!!! And thanks to PCS Publicity Director Gregg Merksamer, Vice President Paul Steinberg, and President Rick Duffy, for their help, suggestions, and support.
I have no animosity toward Dr. Jensen or Barrett-Jackson. I don't know who made up what parts of the story, so I won't accuse. I didn't intend to take money out of the doctor's pockets, or B-J's pockets, that's just what happened. They should have known and should have done what was right. I'm not happy at the outcome, nobody really is.
I learned a lot from this experience. I learned a lot about the real JFK Navy ambulance that I didn't know, and a lot about the Scottsdale ambulance. The real ambulance has an interesting history, ending in 1986. I'll bet the Scottsdale ambulance has an equally interesting real history, and I hope we someday find out. I learned how to make the right phone calls or e-mails to get info. And I learned this takes a lot of time and effort - I'm not a professional researcher, I'm a Paramedic who likes the history of ambulances but still has to go to work.
If you’re a visitor and not a regular user of our site, but you like the history of ambulances, hearses, limousines and related vehicles, please stay, and join the Professional Car Society. We’re a great car club with great meets. If you aren’t staying but have any questions about such vehicles in the future, please come back here and ask, we’ve got a lot of good members who know a lot about these cars. I'm not THE expert, I learn from the experts every day. And if you’re done, thanks for coming to see and read us, and thanks for “getting it”.
All,
Well, this battle over the Scottsdale ambulance and the alleged JFK connection is over, so I wanted to say a couple things while we still have the attention of those who are visiting but probably won’t think about old ambulances again.
In my mind, we ended in a draw. The Scottsdale ambulance was auctioned for a ridiculous sum of money. It ends with a “can’t say it is, can’t say it isn’t” decision on the part of Barrett-Jackson, and, as such, probably in the mind of the general public. It’s positive for “us” only in the respect that the Scottsdale ambulance is no longer “certainly” the JFK ambulance, it's just a "mystery". Unfortunately, I think it’s a matter of time before we fight this battle again.
PCS President Rick Duffy thanked me for my efforts tonight. You’re welcome. I got some files and made a few calls and e-mails, really anything anyone could have done (and anything Steve Davis or his professional staff should have done). But I didn’t do this by myself. So while I have the outsiders’ attention, I just wanted to say some words of thanks to others.
JFK researchers Paul Hoch and David Lifton. They are amateur researchers like us but found a lot of information from the JFK assassination point of view. They contacted me for help, I’d never heard of them before. They also pointed out the “error” that Rear Admiral Hogan retired from the Navy two years before the letter he “signed” was written, a key point in refuting the documentation supplied with the car. Paul also called the PCS forums “civil”!
The John F. Kennedy Presidential Library in Boston, specifically, Head Archivist Karen Abramson, Audiovisual Archivist Laurie Austin and Archivist Maura Porter. They had the letters and photos all the time, it’s all public domain information. And when asked, they produced it all with lightning speed, graciously. I mentioned to Laurie that the one piece of evidence that would answer all the questions would be if there was a photo of the ambulance in the crusher. In about 15 minutes, all the photos were in my inbox.
Justin Hyde and Jalopnik.com. I’m not familiar with the website or blog, but after he published his story about the Scottsdale ambulance possibly being a “fake”, it was picked up by a lot of news outlets across the country. And thanks for mentioning the PCS and the ProfessionalCarSociety.org website.
Barrett-Jackson Auction Co., specifically Steve Davis and Craig Jackson. They backed off their initial claims to a point, and actually did show the Library letter and the photos of the ambulance being crushed on their televised broadcast of the auction – quite classy and surprising to me since they disagreed. But despite being “ranked in the Top 100 Most Ethical Companies” as advertised on their website, they proved that the desire for profit still exceeds the desire for truth and historical correctness. Frankly, the legwork should have been done by them, not by us. And Steve Davis gave the dash plaque a good waving and airing out, perhaps it won’t be put back.
PCS members Tony Blair, for being the first to point out to PCS that this was even coming up, Dwayne Brooks, who initiated contact with Steve Davis, and everyone who posted to the thread with good information or questions to be answered. Some of the questions our members asked were questions we didn’t know the answers to, but we looked for and found them. Most important to this discussion is member Dan Brintlinger, who first asked the question in 1988 and got the answer. The letter he got from Congressman Michel and the Navy pointed the direction for everything else. If I forgot anyone specific, I'm SORRY!!! And thanks to PCS Publicity Director Gregg Merksamer, Vice President Paul Steinberg, and President Rick Duffy, for their help, suggestions, and support.
I have no animosity toward Dr. Jensen or Barrett-Jackson. I don't know who made up what parts of the story, so I won't accuse. I didn't intend to take money out of the doctor's pockets, or B-J's pockets, that's just what happened. They should have known and should have done what was right. I'm not happy at the outcome, nobody really is.
I learned a lot from this experience. I learned a lot about the real JFK Navy ambulance that I didn't know, and a lot about the Scottsdale ambulance. The real ambulance has an interesting history, ending in 1986. I'll bet the Scottsdale ambulance has an equally interesting real history, and I hope we someday find out. I learned how to make the right phone calls or e-mails to get info. And I learned this takes a lot of time and effort - I'm not a professional researcher, I'm a Paramedic who likes the history of ambulances but still has to go to work.
If you’re a visitor and not a regular user of our site, but you like the history of ambulances, hearses, limousines and related vehicles, please stay, and join the Professional Car Society. We’re a great car club with great meets. If you aren’t staying but have any questions about such vehicles in the future, please come back here and ask, we’ve got a lot of good members who know a lot about these cars. I'm not THE expert, I learn from the experts every day. And if you’re done, thanks for coming to see and read us, and thanks for “getting it”.
From http://automotive.speedtv.com/article/autos-kennedy-ambulance-bid-to-120k/:
[QUOTE ON:]
Kennedy Ambulance Bid To $120K
Paradise Valley, Az., collector at Barrett-Jackson steps up because she's "an all-American girl" and the price was so low.
...
The gray Navy ambulance, surrounded by controversy regarding its authenticity, was bought by Addison Brown of Paradise Valley, Az., who wasn’t yet born when the assassination occurred.
“I’m an all-American girl,” Brown said after the sale. “I know that this car represents a huge day in U.S. history.”
She said that initially, she will house the car in her private automobile museum, then possibly find a dignified place for it to be kept.
“I’d like to see it in the Smithsonian or something like that,” Brown said. “I promise everyone, the American people, that it will have a great home.”
Brown believes in the authenticity of the car because of all the confirming research performed by the seller and auction officials.
She hadn’t planned to buy the car, Brown added, but was surprised that the bidding was so low. She and a group of friends had been estimating beforehand what the price would be.
“I said, if it sells for $125,000, it’s going home with me,” she said.
The final result, including the 10 percent bidder fee, was $137,500 for the ambulance.
[QUOTE OFF]
There is an undated photo of Brown and her husband at one of Craig Jackson’s “private bashes at his multi-million dollar, 20,000 sq. ft. plus home,” also in Paradise Valley, at http://arizonafoothillsmagazine.com/the-az-insider/1584.html.
Brown and Jensen have been interviewed by Fox:
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/entertainment/controversial-jfk-ambulance-sold-for-120k-01222011 “[T]he woman who bought it said the controversy did not bother her. She said she trusted the research done by Barrett Jackson.”
“The Paradise Valley woman, who is a car collector, was not sure what she would do with the vehicle, but she may ask the Smithsonian if it is interested in displaying it.”
Jensen said “I didn’t expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition.”
Well, not exactly; that’s the Monty Python version.
He said “The scrutiny was more than I bargained for.”
(That is about halfway through the 2:26 video.)
[QUOTE ON:]
Kennedy Ambulance Bid To $120K
Paradise Valley, Az., collector at Barrett-Jackson steps up because she's "an all-American girl" and the price was so low.
...
The gray Navy ambulance, surrounded by controversy regarding its authenticity, was bought by Addison Brown of Paradise Valley, Az., who wasn’t yet born when the assassination occurred.
“I’m an all-American girl,” Brown said after the sale. “I know that this car represents a huge day in U.S. history.”
She said that initially, she will house the car in her private automobile museum, then possibly find a dignified place for it to be kept.
“I’d like to see it in the Smithsonian or something like that,” Brown said. “I promise everyone, the American people, that it will have a great home.”
Brown believes in the authenticity of the car because of all the confirming research performed by the seller and auction officials.
She hadn’t planned to buy the car, Brown added, but was surprised that the bidding was so low. She and a group of friends had been estimating beforehand what the price would be.
“I said, if it sells for $125,000, it’s going home with me,” she said.
The final result, including the 10 percent bidder fee, was $137,500 for the ambulance.
[QUOTE OFF]
There is an undated photo of Brown and her husband at one of Craig Jackson’s “private bashes at his multi-million dollar, 20,000 sq. ft. plus home,” also in Paradise Valley, at http://arizonafoothillsmagazine.com/the-az-insider/1584.html.
Brown and Jensen have been interviewed by Fox:
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/entertainment/controversial-jfk-ambulance-sold-for-120k-01222011 “[T]he woman who bought it said the controversy did not bother her. She said she trusted the research done by Barrett Jackson.”
“The Paradise Valley woman, who is a car collector, was not sure what she would do with the vehicle, but she may ask the Smithsonian if it is interested in displaying it.”
Jensen said “I didn’t expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition.”
Well, not exactly; that’s the Monty Python version.
He said “The scrutiny was more than I bargained for.”
(That is about halfway through the 2:26 video.)