JFK Pontiac ambulance up for auction

What a complete dissapointment that press conference was for me. I never expected the level of disrespect toward those who presented anything that might suggest the ambulance in their posession might not be the actual car they say it is. Steve Davis speaks publicly with a much different tone than he does in his email messages.

John Jensen described how he spent a year researching this vehicle and submitting requests for documentation. Why wouldn't he have contacted the John F. Kennedy Presidential Library & Museum? Why wouldn't he answer when asked from whom he bought the car?

I would have expected full disclosure to potential buyers to include mention of the letters written from the research and historian experts. I also believe that the display of documents refuting authenticity in a negative manner shows a lack of sincerity of any claim to present the facts.

Thank you to all who have spent time and effort related to this car and to the promotion of The Professional Car Society.
 
Well, you guys can flame me all you want, but I don't have a problem with what anybody, including Barrett-Jackson or the consignor, is doing. I think I called it pretty well a few pages back.

No one knows for sure at this point what the original set of numbers were of the car that carried Kennedy, outside of the number stenciled on the door. No one outside of our group knows who Steve Lichtman is, or what his character is. The information from the library has just come out in the last couple days, and regardless of what PCS members WANT to believe, it is still suspect to the general public. I believe if we keep after this that might change, and newer or better information may come to light about the crushed car.

But the fact of the matter is that hasn't happened YET, so it's not fair to cheat the consignor based on information that people think is out there, but isn't...YET.

I agree there were some snarky remarks and attitude in the press conference, but I am still able to see this story from both sides of the coin, and based on all the evidence I have seen so far I think they have done the right thing by letting the public (meaning everyone in the world who knows nothing or cares nothing about the pro-car community) know that there is an opposing viewpoint and that there is some doubt about the provenance of the car, and with that being said, buyer make up their own mind. They really can't just pull the car without an abundance of evidence that the car is a fake, and until someone proves otherwise they have stronger evidence in their corner.

I realize there are photographs of a car being crushed, and having talked to Steve Lichtman and everyone else here I know the kind of integrity the PCS has, and I want to believe that was the real car. But to the non-PCS world the evidence isn't there to 100% say that was the real car. I wish it were, I wish there were more, but at this point there isn't, and with all the other controversy surrounding all other aspects of the Kennedy assassination it is easy for people to say that there may have been a decoy car, that the wrong car was crushed, etc.

So the short version is there is a car out there that has some pretty strong documentation that it was the real car, and there are photos of another car that appears to be the real car getting crushed. I believe all those facts have been presented to the general public, and they are free to make their own decision. I don't feel anyone is being deceived at this point, like I did earlier on.

I said earlier on that, while Steve Lichtman is a respected and trusted friend of ours, nobody outside of our community knows who he is, and that will weigh into the assessment of the facts. It looks like it has so far. I also said a while back (albeit in a joking manner) that the picture of the car being crushed didn't actually show it being crushed, just in a crusher, and that post was pulled because people thought I was playing devils advocate too much and it tarnished the reputation of the PCS, but you wait and see, I can almost gaurantee before this is all over somebody somewhere will go down that road in all seriousness. I'm hoping more information comes from the library, and I hope the first thing is a pictureof that car 8 inches tall, preferably with the numbers on the tailgate still showing, but without documentation refering to the serial numbers and VIN numbers obtained independent of the seller of the vehicle, I don't think we'll ever know the truth.
 
Does anyone here know how Kennedy's body was transported from the hospital to the white house? Was he ever taken to a funeral home to be embalmed? Could a navy ambulance have been used here?

My worthless opinioin is that we do not have all of the information we need to be 100% positive about anything. Barrett Jackson also does not have all of the information. There are just to many blurry details for me. The fact that the navy changed the way the numbers were painted on the outside of the ambulance at some point. Did they change the numbers or just the way they were painted? How many ambulances were involved in the transport of the presidents body? Why did an ambulance get crushed, what were the numbers of the crushed ambulance, why were the numbers painted over before the car was crushed? Where is the date plate from the crushed ambulance? Why did BJ remove the data plate from the ambulance and wave it around at the press conference like a worthless piece of metal, but never show a close up of that plate.

This reminds me of the story about the signing of the documents aboard the USS Missouri that ended WWII. Tables were used from the mess hall to sign these papers. After the papers were signed, the kitchen staff moved the tables back into the mess hall for lunch. No one knew what table was actually used to sign to documents, so that important part of history was lost to someones chicken noodle soup! Anytime the goverment is involved, there is large room for questions without answers!

This group has done a great job of research on a very interesting topic. Because no one in the PCS has a financial interest in this car, I think it is safe to say the information presented is as truthfull and accuate as can be with the limited information available. Many changes can take place in almost 50 years. Information wasn't clear 5 minutes after things happened with the entire Kennedy funeral process much less half a century.

I too am disipointed with Barrett-Jackson's decision to auction this car with the details as they are. However, I do not think BJ would risk a billion dollar reputation over this one car and the thousands of dollars they may make. I also think they did their own research to confirm the cars history. Just because their conclusion differs from yours and mine, doesn't prove they are wrong. As a last word, I will be glad when this whole mess is over so we can get back to the details of our own cars!
 
The picture in the crusher

The picture of the car in the crusher doesn't look like anything one that would have been saved.... condition-wise even if it had just sat at a military base outside for all those years it wouldn't have looked that bad (in my opinion) MM
 
Just as an aside here, there was a show on the History Channel Thursday night entitled "The Kennedy Assasssination-24 Hours After". Brad and I finally got to watch it, on the DVR, last night after Barb went to bed.

Very interesting, I learned a lot of things I didn't know before. There was a lot of "actual" footage showing things never before seen on television. They got ahold of the Zapruder (Zabruder?) footage and somehow "enhanced" it to show detail like never before. When the third bullet strikes Kennedy's head, there is no doubt about his condition thereafter. They also had photos/movies taken at Parkland Hospital, Dallas Love Field, and Andrews Air Force Base. Lots of very interesting commentary. A lot of that commentary supports things that haver been posted here regarding the events of that day i.e, the Secret Service removed his body from the hospital by force and at gunpoint. Good footage of the O'Neal car, and the Pontiac.

One observation that is easy to make is that the Pontiac ambulance was "overloaded" when it departed Air Force One that night. She was definitely "sagging" in the rear.

Very interesting indeed.
 
Sorry I haven't popped in here in the last 24 hours, I've been tied up with a non-JFK-ambulance situation. In that process, I have also been giving phone interviews to the national media about this. Whew!

I am disappointed with Barrett-Jackson's response, but far from surprised. This was going to be an intersection between integrity and profit. Profit won.

I don't think there's any reason to believe that the ambulance in Scottsdale is the real deal, but I think that, if the seller or Barrett-Jackson wants to believe it is, they will believe it no matter what evidence is presented. I think that the fact that they had to back off their original claim that is really is the JFK ambulance, and are now stating it may or may not be, is all we're going to get - they've admitted their mistake without admitting anything.

They, and an earlier poster, have brought up the point of wondering about a decoy ambulance. There might have been a decoy, there might not have been, but we aren't looking for the decoy. We are looking for the actual car, which is shown in the 1963 photos. If it's the decoy, it's not the actual car. Any decoy would have had a different number on the door. So the question of a decoy is really moot.

One has to ask, which is more likely:
1) the Navy kept track of the ambulance, donated it to the Kennedy Library, and they scrapped it, or
2) the Navy donated a different ambulance to the Library, the actual ambulance was sold as surplus, lost track of for 30 years, and reappeared suddenly just in time to be auctioned two days after the 50th anniversary of Kennedy's inauguration?

And who's more likely to fabricate a story, the Kennedy Library or the seller?

I don't think that the PCS can be sued for anything. First, this is free speech, we aren't saying anything that would be harmful or threatening. As a club and as individuals, we are expressing our opinions and presenting material that is in the public domain (the Kennedy Library is administered by the National Archives). It's not like this information just appeared, it has been there, and available to the public, all the time.

I think, if Barrett-Jackson wanted to do due dilligence before advertising the ambulance, they could have made the same calls I did and gotten the same information. Sure the frame number matches the serial number matches the engine number, that's fine for a Mustang. But to determine if a car is part of American history or not, you need to do a little more work. There is the problem, they didn't make the effort and now it's bitten them on the butt.

I hope someone buys this and will remove the lettering to separate it once and for all from the Kennedy story. Overall, it's a pretty nice ambulance. But I doubt that will happen.

I usually do post from my basement, though I'm not there today. I'll be back there soon. Thanks to all for your kind words.
 
The Hogan letter

In the opinion of someone who knows nothing about cars but a lot about Kennedy assassination investigations: in addition to the evidence of destruction, these facts remain important:
* Barrett-Jackson is relying heavily on a purported 1963 letter from Adm. Hogan, who had retired from the Navy two years earlier. (http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/176/2/155.extract)
* It would have made no sense for the Navy to ask for details about the manufacture of the autopsy ambulance in connection with an investigation of the assassination.
* We do not know which government agency, or which intermediary, provided this letter to Dr. Jensen.
You cannot get a fake document from an authentic FOIA.
 
first off let me say BJ did not research this car other then to say the serial numbers on the car match in all the places they should. this car is complete in that regard. this car was made by gm it was sold to superior. from there on out the paper trail for the government numbers assigned to the car disappear. there waving the data plate around at the meeting shows how easy it would be to put it in any other 63 military ambulance and paint numbers on the door. this is why they refused the car last year. now we find a mystery letter written to superior and and answer written back. dragged out from some government vault were it has been all these years. no paper trail as to how they got them out of the vault just a statement that they did. good enough for BJ the numbers match. just like they told them they needed last year. the number that they did not realise they needed or did not know was even there was the federal stock number. the number the accounting office assigned this piece of property to so they could track it threw there system. the navy number means nothing to the accounting office. only the FSN#. this number would have been reviled in order to bring out the paper work that ties the rest of the numbers together. but Bj doesn't care about any of this only that the numbers in the car match the numbers on the documentation present to them. they are making there money on consignments sales after all not verifying historical documents.

I to can play devil's advocate and run a number of scenarios threw as to what is and isn't a fake. 4 people gather and do the family a favor almost 25 years after the fact. the real car in a container on the docks on the other side of the county and all that. tags taken off and hidden away. all kind of fun stuff. but the truth is I can't believe if You had it you would not have bragged about it for all this time. no one would sit on it and smile.

just how hard did the people not just one, but more then one have to go to find out about the car.. they asked the library. when asked again the library produced evidence. they have stated if what they produced is not good enough, when time permits they will show concrete proof that the right car was crushed.

BJ could have made this phone call to. but that would be verifying historical documents and that's not there job. there job was to put on there blinders and find the numbers on the car that are on the documentation. they did the numbers are there. the car sells.

my job would be to crawl back into my basement and secretly blog about it.
 
Roy Hodge said:
The enlarged photo of the interior of the crushed ambulance clearly shows the data plate is missing. The data plate should be installed to the right of the decals that are visible; this is suggested by the screws or screw holes that are visible in addition to the shiny paint outline visible in the original photo posted on page 18 of this thread. Close examination of the data plate location on the BJ ambulance indicates it is installed in this location along the right edge of the glove compartment lid. It stands to reason the plate would be in the same place on each ambulance manufactured by superior that year.

I believe two scenarios are probable; 1) - The data plate was removed along with who knows what else prior to the ambulance being crushed in 1986 and these plates are now installed on the BJ ambulance. or, 2) The crushed ambulance was not the original ambulance and the plate was removed prior to the ambulance being delivered to the JFK Library. It seems strange that the serial number was painted over on the right side of the museum ambulance but is visible on the rear door.

I'm proud to be a new member of this forum and hope that you guys never have reason to investigate me! It’s amazing the job you have done since this thread started!
:applause:
Click to expand...

Roy, first of all welcome to the PCS and our forums. Our goal in this was to find the truth about the ambulance. We'll never investigate you, same as we've never investigated Mr. Jensen (the owner of the ambulance) and that was not our intent. As disappointing as the press conference was, I expected no less. Barrett-Jackson's job is to work for the seller. Everything was presented in the same fashon as a day in court.
First they built Mr. Jensen's character. Excuse me... DOCTOR Jensen. Notice how they kept referring to him as "Doctor" and "Doctor Jensen" to the point it was nauseating? That was to build HIS character. How could a man who "holds people's lives in the balance every day" ever possibly attempt to deceive the public? That's the same way a lawyer presents their case, they try to use anything as leverage by a play on words. We have no problem with Mr. Jensen, he seems like a stand-up guy who loves old Pontiacs. The way he was presented by BJ I did kinda keep looking for an angel's halo to appear over his head but never saw one.
Next, the paperwork Jensen provided was discussed & emphasized. Then the documentation & photos from the PCS was hurried through, kept vague & scoffed at by that same play-on-words in an attempt to downplay all evidence to the contrary. Towards the end of the press conference they even said something like "You have factual evidence here... and STUFF over here, you be the judge & make up your own mind" and i'm fine with that. It's ok because it's obvious that our website has become a base of research for ANYONE interested in buying this car. Our numbers prove it, how many other threads on this forum have nearly 20,000 hits in the last couple weeks? NONE. People are thirsty for knowledge and have been provided with a link to our website from countless other sites since our research came into light. What they see when they come here is interaction between PCS members, discussing the ambulance. Through this thread a lot has been shared & learned.
As an auctioneer OR an attorney your job is to hype your client, their character, and their product into the greatest thing since sliced bread... and to cast doubt & scoff at anything of the contrary. BJ is only doing their job and to squeeze every penny they can out of that ambulance, after all it's money in their pocket & makes for great TV ratings. I've always enjoyed watching their auctions and will still watch them, it's entertainment for us car guys. As for this ambulance, from everything we've read there will be more digging long after the auction. Rest assured knowing we haven't heard the last of this saga...
:drama:
 
This is my first post, and I've thoroughly enjoyed reading through the entire thread.. wow, what a long, involved investigation.

What I'm really lost with is this.... Why were the numbers painted out ont the door of the crushed car, but not the numbers on the back door? Just does not seem to make sense. Also, the picture of the ambulance in the crusher only shows the side door with the numbers painted out, not one of the back door. Who knows, maybe someone switched ambulances... As someone said, ...when the government is involved.... You just never know.... I'll keep reading for sure, Alex...
 
Forward of a message I just received...

Hi Brady,

I'm the guy with the Cox Estate Caddy Flower Car pics from 2007. I'm contacting you to congratulate your members on the work they did regarding the B-J auction of the JFK ambulance.

I'm not a member so I can't post on the PCS Forum, but I wanted to share an observation with you. In the pics of the Pontiac at the crusher, there's a great image of the car's dash. What's missing (unless I'm blind) is the brass USN plate that is so evident and used as proof on the B-J car. There's a plate with occupancy ratings, etc., but a big white blank where the brass plaque should be.

My belief is that the brass plaque was removed from the car before its crushing, and by some strange twist wound up with the B-J car. People save all kinds of souvenirs, and I would have done it if I'd been there. The missing horn button screams souvenir, too. Just a thought.

If you feel this point has any validity, I would love it if you could bring this to the Forum's attention.

I hope you're doing well.
Regards,
Tom Gibson
(864)376-3803
 
Bobb Kosoff

I am thinking now that the "surprise guest" they always bring up on the podeum at BJ Auctions when the bids start faltering a bit will be none other than Bobb Kosoff to verify pictures of the sea-train shipping container he found it in at Barstow etc.,.... wouldn't that be something...stay tuned! MM
 
As of 4 pm Eastern Standard Time, Barrett-Jackson was up to Lot 1251 in its Scottsdale Auction. The is-it-or-isn't-it JFK 1963 Superior ambulance is Lot 1277. At this rate, I would estimate it will cross the block sometime between 5 and 7 PM EST today. If you don't get the Speed network on your cable system, there should be a live feed at www.barrett-jackson.com.
 
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Having done a fresh count of the number of cars Barrett-Jackson still must auction before it gets to the Kennedy ambulance (LOT 1277), I feel compelled to revise my estimate of when it will cross the block to the "prime time" between 8 and 9:30 PM EST. This agrees with estimates in many of the pre-event promotions and news reports.

While LOT 1260 was sold at 5:20 PM EST, the number of in-between "decimal" lots (i.e. LOT 1260.1 through LOT 1260.6) means there are actaully about 50 cars to move before the Superior, at an average rate of 12-16 cars per hour by my count.
 
Ok I watched the BJ press conference and I have to say they said the truth a number of times . non of these documents were around until the current owner got the car. over and over again they said this. then they got mailed to him out of the blue. he sent off for a number of things from the freedom of information act but got no results. the the admiral's letter and the superior response just get sent to him? the current owner feels it not pertinent for us to know who he got the car from. but that there was a letter from the kennedy library saying some car was destroyed. no numbers but pictures that don't show anything. but it was reveling that the current owner has two of these ambulances. did not the Center Valley car come with a parts car?? sorry for any confusion in my ramblings as I type slow and correct a lot I'm normally behind about 6 post on this one. reread things and got what was being said about the type front. i agree on that. they really did gloss over the Kennedy Library connection vary fast
 
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