Thanks for posting the video of the press conference. I thought the consignor looked very unhappy during the event.
JFK Pontiac ambulance up for auction
- Thread starter Tony Blair
- Start date
Thanks for posting the video of the press conference. I thought the consignor looked very unhappy during the event.
This is insanity! Why is the burden of truth, well beyond a reasonable doubt, on the society and historians working to document the truth and history of the car, and not on the person selling it to provide more proof that what they have is authentic? This has become more like litigation than a car auction.
Barrett-Jackson did a great job of building up the seller’s credibility in there press conference, but for a commission of $100K versus $10K, wouldn’t you? And I don't think we're questioning what Barrett-Jackson is saying, that the car's numbers all match the owner's paperwork, but that’s all they have to go on. We're disputing the validity of the paperwork, the contradicting specifics of the auction car compared to the JKF car, and the missing history and paper trail prior to 2010. There have been enough holes shot in these to make it extremely questionable, that the VIN and paperwork on the auction car shouldn't even matter, unless someone can provide the real JFK's VIN and compare it to the auction car. Everything factual piece of evidence to this point, from photos, to Library documents, to sworn witnessing of occurrences, provided by the society and historians, speaks to the exact opposite only proving that the real ambulance was crushed.
And why are conspiracy theorists getting into this debate on the web? Swapped numbers, falsified government documents, paid off witnesses, photo-shopped pictures, shadow and decoy ambulances. Come on, making up your own reality is a lot easier than accepting reality, especially if you really want to have hope in the truth of something. And I think it's this exact absurdity that's going to lead to two things:
1 - The most money ever paid for a reproduction of a valuable car, and
2 - Someone truly believing that they own "the ambulance" and it creating a legacy as such.
As far as I’m concerned, both of those are losses. One for the next owner, and one for the rest of us. Sadly, I think there will be enough “true believers” that this car will always be the JFK ambulance, no matter what you say or show them. The only truth in this is that anyone can make 2+2=5 a fact, if you can convince enough people that 2+2=5.
Barrett-Jackson did a great job of building up the seller’s credibility in there press conference, but for a commission of $100K versus $10K, wouldn’t you? And I don't think we're questioning what Barrett-Jackson is saying, that the car's numbers all match the owner's paperwork, but that’s all they have to go on. We're disputing the validity of the paperwork, the contradicting specifics of the auction car compared to the JKF car, and the missing history and paper trail prior to 2010. There have been enough holes shot in these to make it extremely questionable, that the VIN and paperwork on the auction car shouldn't even matter, unless someone can provide the real JFK's VIN and compare it to the auction car. Everything factual piece of evidence to this point, from photos, to Library documents, to sworn witnessing of occurrences, provided by the society and historians, speaks to the exact opposite only proving that the real ambulance was crushed.
And why are conspiracy theorists getting into this debate on the web? Swapped numbers, falsified government documents, paid off witnesses, photo-shopped pictures, shadow and decoy ambulances. Come on, making up your own reality is a lot easier than accepting reality, especially if you really want to have hope in the truth of something. And I think it's this exact absurdity that's going to lead to two things:
1 - The most money ever paid for a reproduction of a valuable car, and
2 - Someone truly believing that they own "the ambulance" and it creating a legacy as such.
As far as I’m concerned, both of those are losses. One for the next owner, and one for the rest of us. Sadly, I think there will be enough “true believers” that this car will always be the JFK ambulance, no matter what you say or show them. The only truth in this is that anyone can make 2+2=5 a fact, if you can convince enough people that 2+2=5.
The attached link shows jalopnik's response to the comments made by Steve Davis at this morning's press conference.
http://jalopnik.com/5740112/barrett+jackson-stonewalls-over-jfk-ambulance
http://jalopnik.com/5740112/barrett+jackson-stonewalls-over-jfk-ambulance
I really think that the Kennedy Library needs to send someone to the auction with the actual evidence or do a media conference of their OWN on national television BEFORE the auction takes place. I would think that Kennedy Library personnel/directors would be FUMING by now and would definitely want to put this to rest once and for all. I would also think that if Barrett-Jackson is not super careful, they could easily be sued by many persons if not the government, for continuing to auction this car, even after clear evidence has been presented to them, especially by the Kennedy Library--wouldn't they know more about this than ANYONE? I agree with Adam, pure insanity! Get your popcorn ready tomorrow, sit back, and watch....it will be very interesting to say the least.
On another side note, and I hate to even go there or think this way, but....is it in any way possible that the PCS could be potentially sued, by say the auction company or the consignor, for ruining what he thought was going to be the biggest payday of his life? Just a thought I have had as I have read over all of this. I know I would be really ticked if a bunch of ambulance historians exposed my vehicle, therefore making the price plunge and the doubts of many increase largely.
On another side note, and I hate to even go there or think this way, but....is it in any way possible that the PCS could be potentially sued, by say the auction company or the consignor, for ruining what he thought was going to be the biggest payday of his life? Just a thought I have had as I have read over all of this. I know I would be really ticked if a bunch of ambulance historians exposed my vehicle, therefore making the price plunge and the doubts of many increase largely.
I really think that the Kennedy Library needs to send someone to the auction with the actual evidence or do a media conference of their OWN on national television BEFORE the auction takes place. I would think that Kennedy Library personnel/directors would be FUMING by now and would definitely want to put this to rest once and for all. I would also think that if Barrett-Jackson is not super careful, they could easily be sued by many persons if not the government, for continuing to auction this car, even after clear evidence has been presented to them, especially by the Kennedy Library--wouldn't they know more about this than ANYONE? I agree with Adam, pure insanity! Get your popcorn ready tomorrow, sit back, and watch....it will be very interesting to say the least.
On another side note, and I hate to even go there or think this way, but....is it in any way possible that the PCS could be potentially sued, by say the auction company or the consignor, for ruining what he thought was going to be the biggest payday of his life? Just a thought I have had as I have read over all of this. I know I would be really ticked if a bunch of ambulance historians exposed my vehicle, therefore making the price plunge and the doubts of many increase largely.
I am not aware of any official statements made by the PCS regarding this matter. Rather, a few indivdual members have performed research and posted their findings. As far as I know there is no liability associated with posing questions in seeking the truth.
True. But WE as a group/society have been referred to and quoted in many online and media places on this subject. Believe me, I don't want anything like that to happen, but I couldn't help but wonder about it.
Well its going to be interesting thats for sure. I watched the press conference video, and yes Steve did a great job of talking the owner up. Out of everything that was said, there wasn't anything said that would make me want to fork out the money to buy it. If anything, it seems like anyone who might be interested in buying the car, is probly even more confused now, as to wether the car is the real JFK car or not.
Josh
Josh
Darren Bedford
PCS Member
After finally getting that press conference to load and watch.....
here are my thoughts...
I believe all 3 of those guys are pissed with the evidence provided and are now stuggling to get that car to fetch the money they were expecting for the car.
I believe they are just in it for the money as I posted hours ago in this thread before watching the video.
I have lost all respect for Craig, Steve and BJ Auctions !
These guys were like chickens with their heads cut off dancing around the real evidence pumping up their side of things in hopes to get that huge bid.
Like the Dr. said, 5000.00 bid or a 1/2 million... I hope its 5000.00 or less !
Its being sold says Craig !!!! Ya, the Dr. doesn't want it now he knows the real story of it being a fake !
I hope no one else wants it either !
Darren
here are my thoughts...
I believe all 3 of those guys are pissed with the evidence provided and are now stuggling to get that car to fetch the money they were expecting for the car.
I believe they are just in it for the money as I posted hours ago in this thread before watching the video.
I have lost all respect for Craig, Steve and BJ Auctions !
These guys were like chickens with their heads cut off dancing around the real evidence pumping up their side of things in hopes to get that huge bid.
Like the Dr. said, 5000.00 bid or a 1/2 million... I hope its 5000.00 or less !
Its being sold says Craig !!!! Ya, the Dr. doesn't want it now he knows the real story of it being a fake !
I hope no one else wants it either !
Darren
Gregg D. Merksamer
PCS Life Member / PCS Publicity Chairman / PCS Ele
It is a true pity that the witnesses to the crushing didn't photograph the vehicle's VIN or Superior data plates. As the Kennedy Library isn't an auto museum, I guess we shouldn't really be surprised that was overlooked, even though they're forced to deal regularly with conspiracy theorists who consider no detail too small to scrutinize and re-scrutinize ... unlike us, in this epic-length thread!
Gregg D. Merksamer
PCS Life Member / PCS Publicity Chairman / PCS Ele
Though the PCS is almost certainly getting kicked off B-J's Christmas card list, I don't think Shawn Blyler or others should fret about organizational (or even individual member) exposure when all we've done is present thorougly reasoned, well-documented evidence to doubt the provenance of this vehicle. It is not like we gain financially by being proven right or wrong.
Having professionally covered Christie's, Bonhams and various other old car auctions for almost a decade-and-a-half, I can also confirm from first hand experience that reputable auction houses want to avert authenticity concerns at all costs, because it undermines both consignor and customer confidence and will put them out of business in the long run. The only reason B-J even tried to defend this car in a press conference was that it was an extensively pre-publicized headliner with a prime time Saturday evening sales spot; any other lot with this much doubt surrounding it (or even a fraction thereof) would have been quickly, quietly and unceremoneously pulled from the sale, especially as there are thousands of other cars on offer to ensure the whole endeavor remains profitable. Now that prospective purchasers have been warned there are doubts, I'm sure B-J's management will be thrilled to find the car is no longer their problem once the new owner's check clears, even it ends up being a fraction of the original estimate.
Having professionally covered Christie's, Bonhams and various other old car auctions for almost a decade-and-a-half, I can also confirm from first hand experience that reputable auction houses want to avert authenticity concerns at all costs, because it undermines both consignor and customer confidence and will put them out of business in the long run. The only reason B-J even tried to defend this car in a press conference was that it was an extensively pre-publicized headliner with a prime time Saturday evening sales spot; any other lot with this much doubt surrounding it (or even a fraction thereof) would have been quickly, quietly and unceremoneously pulled from the sale, especially as there are thousands of other cars on offer to ensure the whole endeavor remains profitable. Now that prospective purchasers have been warned there are doubts, I'm sure B-J's management will be thrilled to find the car is no longer their problem once the new owner's check clears, even it ends up being a fraction of the original estimate.
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John ED Renstrom
PCS Member
but they did Steve has posted the pictured of the dash. showing the data plate. but of course we can't read it from the lower resolution file. so the library has that photo and 4 people who say it was crushed. that should trump on letter from superior ( funny it's not from the kosciusko plant) but headquarters in Ohio that so conveniently ties all the numbers on this car together. but does not refer to the car with the federal stock number which is how it would be listed on the federal register not the Navy number. so BJ says the numbers on the car match the numbers on the letter. you be the judge. I'm still betting on a over one million dollar bid and a swift trip over seas so the car can disappear. 3 or 4 shell bidders on the phone to run it up to look good and no one will ever see this car again. here is a crop of the data plate on the crushed car.
Attachments
Jeremy D. Ledford
PCS Volunteer Chapter President
OK. An observation here in the cropped photo Ed just posted. The picture posted by Steve of the front compartment shows most of the front. After Ed cropped the photo I noticed something but not totally for sure but that plate looks like the decal style that is silver and black with no screws or rivets sticking up. The one on the B-J car that they picture is brass and held down with screws right?
Basement bloggers...
I just got done watching the horse and pony show video. I guess we are nothing more than "basement bloggers" who do not have a life. Oh well, I would rather be someone who has no life and be part of a great group like this, than not be. I had to keep wondering why Steve was wearing sunglasses the whole time, did he not want anyone to see his eyes for some specific reason? It sure was something at any rate. By the end, I was ready to take that data plate he kept waving around and, well, I won't say, hahahaha.
I just got done watching the horse and pony show video. I guess we are nothing more than "basement bloggers" who do not have a life. Oh well, I would rather be someone who has no life and be part of a great group like this, than not be. I had to keep wondering why Steve was wearing sunglasses the whole time, did he not want anyone to see his eyes for some specific reason? It sure was something at any rate. By the end, I was ready to take that data plate he kept waving around and, well, I won't say, hahahaha.
Watching the auction tonight, they talked about and showed the car a few times. They really think this is going to be the highlight of the whole auction. Well I hate to bust there bubble, but I really don't think its going to bring near as much as they think it will.
Josh
Josh
If B-J were serious about due dilligence they would hold off until this conflicting information were settled. Obviously they don't want to lose any momentum in selling the car.
The FSN plate in Ed's enlargement, is as Jeremy has observed. It looks like a silver with black framed sticker style data plate, with black text and black serial numbers. The plate that is being waved around by the gentleman from Barrett-Jackson is different. It appears to be primarily all black with boxes/areas that are brass colored, that is quite an obvious discrepency. In St. Paul, Minnesota there is a company called Nor-Ell that I used to do graphic arts work for, during a period when I was trying a career change and goverment data plates were and I believe still are one of their primary products. Charles "Bud" Zuel was one the original owners and founders of the company. Bud was a U.S. Navy pilot during the Korean war. Any way, when we made data plates for the goverment, whether Navy or Army, we would create the plates with text and graphics and leave empty boxed areas where the goverment would stamp in the desired numbers to suit the identification numbers they needed. The graphics were silkscreened onto the plate and in the era I worked there, we made the majority of these data plates from aluminum. The numbers were typically always stamped into the plates so no matter if the graphics wore out the numbers would still remain unless you ground them off. We also did data plates with all black text but I believe this was a rarity because to do a series, a new silk screen would have to be created to print each sequencial set of numbers which was really not very cost effective and not very permanent, however after the screen printing process the plates were put into a oven to bake so as to make the graphics more durable and permanent. Can anyone weight in on this observation? It does seem to be very obvious and not discussed, please correct me if I am in error. No one has commented so far on Jeremy's point.
It's obvious to me the seller knows his ambulance is a fake and has been called out on it. Just look at the way he handles the press conference. I like the idea of BJ standing behind the seller and putting it up for sale and when the new buyer discovers he purchased a fake, then the lawyers step in.
It happened here in Daytona when the Mark Martin Car Museum auctioned off what was supposed to be one of the original 6 Batmobiles. Turns out it was not and got sued.
Thanks to Steve and the boys for their hard work in bringing light to this ambulance. Not easy I'm sure but appreciate their efforts. Like the old saying goes, "You can bring a horse to water but you can't make them drink". You've provided the evidence and if they do not want to acknowledge it because that's what they choose to do, you've done all you can. I'm sure BJ has a lot of commission to lose over this one.
:stupid:
It happened here in Daytona when the Mark Martin Car Museum auctioned off what was supposed to be one of the original 6 Batmobiles. Turns out it was not and got sued.
Thanks to Steve and the boys for their hard work in bringing light to this ambulance. Not easy I'm sure but appreciate their efforts. Like the old saying goes, "You can bring a horse to water but you can't make them drink". You've provided the evidence and if they do not want to acknowledge it because that's what they choose to do, you've done all you can. I'm sure BJ has a lot of commission to lose over this one.
:stupid:
Brad Ross
PCS Michigan Chapter President
I guess I better move my computer down to the basement.....
After watching the press conference, I am truly disappointed in the way this is being handled, and also how Mr. Davis referred to those that brought the "crushed ambulance" evidence to light. Also, I was unaware that information nobody previously made available "did not exist before??
If I understand what Mr. Davis is saying, then his principal also applies to the nickel recently found under the back seat of my 1971 Oldsmobile after 40 years. Until I removed the seat and found the nickel, it did not exist? Come on!
Data Plate
The enlarged photo of the interior of the crushed ambulance clearly shows the data plate is missing. The data plate should be installed to the right of the decals that are visible; this is suggested by the screws or screw holes that are visible in addition to the shiny paint outline visible in the original photo posted on page 18 of this thread. Close examination of the data plate location on the BJ ambulance indicates it is installed in this location along the right edge of the glove compartment lid. It stands to reason the plate would be in the same place on each ambulance manufactured by superior that year.
I believe two scenarios are probable; 1) - The data plate was removed along with who knows what else prior to the ambulance being crushed in 1986 and these plates are now installed on the BJ ambulance. or, 2) The crushed ambulance was not the original ambulance and the plate was removed prior to the ambulance being delivered to the JFK Library. It seems strange that the serial number was painted over on the right side of the museum ambulance but is visible on the rear door.
I'm proud to be a new member of this forum and hope that you guys never have reason to investigate me! It’s amazing the job you have done since this thread started!
The enlarged photo of the interior of the crushed ambulance clearly shows the data plate is missing. The data plate should be installed to the right of the decals that are visible; this is suggested by the screws or screw holes that are visible in addition to the shiny paint outline visible in the original photo posted on page 18 of this thread. Close examination of the data plate location on the BJ ambulance indicates it is installed in this location along the right edge of the glove compartment lid. It stands to reason the plate would be in the same place on each ambulance manufactured by superior that year.
I believe two scenarios are probable; 1) - The data plate was removed along with who knows what else prior to the ambulance being crushed in 1986 and these plates are now installed on the BJ ambulance. or, 2) The crushed ambulance was not the original ambulance and the plate was removed prior to the ambulance being delivered to the JFK Library. It seems strange that the serial number was painted over on the right side of the museum ambulance but is visible on the rear door.
I'm proud to be a new member of this forum and hope that you guys never have reason to investigate me! It’s amazing the job you have done since this thread started!