Please describe the method using a timing light that will prove a bad timing chain.
Why does it crank so slow...
- Thread starter Richard Vyse
- Start date
Please describe the method using a timing light that will prove a bad timing chain.
The timing light will indicate where the engine is firing during the starting attempt.
If the chain is excessively sloppy or one of the sprockets is badly enough worn it will be evident with the light.
I'd be inclined to look to a timing chain problem in a slow starter situation far after I eliminated all possible low voltage to the starter possibilities.
GM was famous for minimalist capacity on the ground connection between engine and battery.
The slow first start of the day followed by good starter speed for the rest of the day pretty much says either a battery or a ground problem.
In a vehicle with parallel 12 volt batteries a bad intercell jumper could easily draw down both batteries in parked condition if the batteries are not isolated.
Since it was mentioned GM connected the battery to engine in this model via the frame crossmember, my first move looking for the problem would probably be jumper cables from engine block to battery-. That would bypass any resistance in either the connection made by frame rivets or a corroded connection to the frame itself.
I see the problem more related to a high resistance connection at initial start that self solves through vibration.
The only way I know to test the slack in the change with a light is to.have the engine warm .set the timing on the mark. Print the engine off idle up around 1500or do the mark should advance as the rpm goes up with the mechanical advance and drop right back to were it was when you let go of it. Shut the car off and start it the mark should be right on if not the chain is warn. Now then if it jumped time like Paul hinted, this test would not tell you that only that the chain or gears were so loose the it would not hold time.
As in the case of my Oldsmobile the high torque starter for the 454 is no longer a across the counter thing. But if you use the low torque starter the problem is the hot start not the Cold. Drove me crazy till I got told I had the wrong starter on it.
As in the case of my Oldsmobile the high torque starter for the 454 is no longer a across the counter thing. But if you use the low torque starter the problem is the hot start not the Cold. Drove me crazy till I got told I had the wrong starter on it.
Ok here's the deal. I just tried to start it with the coil wire off, no difference. I tried activating the headlights first, no difference. I tried starting on battery #1then battery #2, no difference. Tried starting on both batteries same ole same ole but per usual always starts. Drags for a turn then takes off. I've got a battery charger on it and will check in the morning. 
I'm not worried about it starting just thought it should crank and go instead of dragging.
I'm not worried about it starting just thought it should crank and go instead of dragging.
How old are the batteries, and what is the condition of the battery cable terminal ends? Are they the lead terminals that you replace the original terminals with using 2 bolts that clamp the wire to the terminal?
If the engine jumped time, then the engine valves are not opening and closing in the proper sequence to the pistons. so removing the ignition coil wire might not prove anything. Some Cadillac engines used plastic coated timing gears, and eventually the plastic would flake off, causing a loose chain, which would lead to the chain jumping a tooth or two. You can try my method of checking the timing chain, or the method suggested by Walter Suiter.
If the engine jumped time, then the engine valves are not opening and closing in the proper sequence to the pistons. so removing the ignition coil wire might not prove anything. Some Cadillac engines used plastic coated timing gears, and eventually the plastic would flake off, causing a loose chain, which would lead to the chain jumping a tooth or two. You can try my method of checking the timing chain, or the method suggested by Walter Suiter.
Jumper cables try that one. Ground the engine to the negative posts on the battery
Cables are the ones with the two bolts ends bolted on. Batteries are only a little over a year.
Cable ends are the ones you bolt on.
I'll try that this morning.
Ok then. I had a battery charger on battery #1 and when I went to start it this morning it cranked right up on just the one battery. Turned off and tried to start on battery #2 and it dragged. Switched to both batteries and took right off. So since t cranked right up on battery #1 with the charger on it I take it I may have weak batteries. I suppose that happens when they sit for so long in between use. I have a battery tickler on the motorcycle so perhaps I need to get one for the Lifeliner. Cheaper than replacing batteries.
Thanks for all the efforts and thoughts....
Thanks for all the efforts and thoughts....
Dump those cable ends that is your problem. They will distort after a short time and cause the cable to be loose. They are also a source of crosion in to the cables. If you can't get any one to put the right ends on down there send them up here I will do it for you.
Just might take you up on that Ed, thanks.
You have 2 problems.
FIRST, scrap the crap battery terminals.
If you can't or don't want to use crimp on terminals for some reason, use these compression terminals. They are 99% as good as a properly crimped terminal.
https://www.delcity.net/store/Compression-Nut-Battery-Terminals/p_819607
I'd still like to see the result of a test employing QUALITY jumper cables from Battery - to the engine block itself, and I don't mean the paint on the block. That would bypass any corrosion resistance in the framee ground path.
When you make them up, employ some grease both to eliminate galling as the connection is made up, and to provide an anticorrosive agent. If you know a Cable TV installer con him out of a tube of the silicone grease they use.
Secondly, you may also have a bad intercel jumper on one of the batterys.
The quick & dirty test for that is a 5 minute charge to the battery at less than 5 amps. That will restore the connection and the battery will deliver full available power.
You may also have a low amperage parasitic draw causing the problem.
Is there any connection bypassing the battery switch suck as a clock or GE Phoenix radio?
Trickle chargers are a mixed blessing.
The ones called battery tenders employ voltage sensing that disconnects power to the charger at just below peak point of charge and turns power back onto the charger around 12 volts.
Fortunately that PC Board is available from China for about 5 bucks, and it is simple to build into almost any charger, including onboard chargers.
I continue to disbelieve this is a timing chain issue.
FIRST, scrap the crap battery terminals.
If you can't or don't want to use crimp on terminals for some reason, use these compression terminals. They are 99% as good as a properly crimped terminal.
https://www.delcity.net/store/Compression-Nut-Battery-Terminals/p_819607
I'd still like to see the result of a test employing QUALITY jumper cables from Battery - to the engine block itself, and I don't mean the paint on the block. That would bypass any corrosion resistance in the framee ground path.
When you make them up, employ some grease both to eliminate galling as the connection is made up, and to provide an anticorrosive agent. If you know a Cable TV installer con him out of a tube of the silicone grease they use.
Secondly, you may also have a bad intercel jumper on one of the batterys.
The quick & dirty test for that is a 5 minute charge to the battery at less than 5 amps. That will restore the connection and the battery will deliver full available power.
You may also have a low amperage parasitic draw causing the problem.
Is there any connection bypassing the battery switch suck as a clock or GE Phoenix radio?
Trickle chargers are a mixed blessing.
The ones called battery tenders employ voltage sensing that disconnects power to the charger at just below peak point of charge and turns power back onto the charger around 12 volts.
Fortunately that PC Board is available from China for about 5 bucks, and it is simple to build into almost any charger, including onboard chargers.
I continue to disbelieve this is a timing chain issue.
final got the hood of the 67 cleared off enough to open it. this is what you should see for battery ends. the positive end is a bit bigger the then negative one both are soldered onto the #4 gables. i did not have a piece of shrink wrap big enough when I did these or the connection would have that around it.
Attachments
Quick ......... call your insurance carrier, and increase your fire insurance!! Who did the electrical hook ups on your car??? Joe the plumber???
High school shop class with a substitute teacher.
Every one grabbed the easy tap. But each wire they snuck under the strap made the cables that much looser.
Grab the cable and give it a tug, bet it will pull right out the end. But my big question would be why so many things wired hot all the time. The cable out to the mechanical siren and possible one for the clock makes sense but every thing else should shut off with the Cole hearse switch. Bring it up we can spend a week or so and straighten it out for you.
The batteries are backwards all the others I have seen the negative post it on the outside and the cable goes right down to the frame about a 1 foot cable
Every one grabbed the easy tap. But each wire they snuck under the strap made the cables that much looser.
Grab the cable and give it a tug, bet it will pull right out the end. But my big question would be why so many things wired hot all the time. The cable out to the mechanical siren and possible one for the clock makes sense but every thing else should shut off with the Cole hearse switch. Bring it up we can spend a week or so and straighten it out for you.
The batteries are backwards all the others I have seen the negative post it on the outside and the cable goes right down to the frame about a 1 foot cable
Actually everything does work off the switch. Nothing operates until the switch is turned on. Not sure about all those other hook ups. I know battery #2 has a double ground on it.
You have two wires coming off the POS terminal of one of the. One with a inline fuse. Those wires are hot all the time to what ever t.hay are going to. One I suspect is your new ac set up.i would guess the one with the inline fuse.
Now this is more the norm under a lot of hoods. The hardest part of any restoration is redoing all the quick fixes done over the years. My offer still stands bring the bike up with it go play and I'll clean it up for you.
Now this is more the norm under a lot of hoods. The hardest part of any restoration is redoing all the quick fixes done over the years. My offer still stands bring the bike up with it go play and I'll clean it up for you.
Peter Grave - Deceased - 1938 - 2022
PCS Member
This is a laugh 1/2 hour ago my car hauler climbed into his diesel ford dually turned the key and click! Muttering he climbed out cleaned the battery terminals. Jumped in turned the key and CLICK no start. At this point he began screaming the F---ing starter just went. I took a look at the cable ends (done by same guy who did Richards Cadillac). Went got my battery terminal cleaning kit, took the junk miserable gypsy terminal end on the positive apart cable out cleaned it good and presto we had start.The set up on the Cadillac is one of the worst I have seen. I am with Paul BUY FIRE INSURANCE!!!
But guys, nothing works period until the battery switch is turned on. I tried it by turning on everything in the car from lights to sirens and including the new A/C system. All dead until I turn the battery switch on. The headlights are the only lights that work with the key off. I have to turn batteries on as well as the ignition key to get anything else to work. I guess I'll take some time and follow (then mark) what the additional cables and hook-ups are and where they're going. Still last evening cranked slow initially for a revolution then faster for two revolutions then cranks right up. I may pull starter and have it checked. So I take it my two 850 cold cranking amp batteries are strong enough then.
So I take it my two 850 cold cranking amp batteries are strong enough then.
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