1957 DeSoto CD Ambulance- who converted it?

Brad Winder

Brad Winder

Hi All,

I finally had some time to take some pictures of my DeSoto Civil Defense Ambulance...says a lot, as I've had it home for over a month now, and it's still on the trailer!

Anyway, I was originally told that it was converted by Henny. I quickly was told by others in the know that it wasn't. Another company that was suggested was Weller. But upon buying the wonderful book about Weller Brothers, I'm pretty sure this one isn't done by them, as it wouldn't be up to their standards...

So, two other companies suggested were Economy Coach, and Comet. Comet seems to be a distinct possibility, as they did DeSoto and Chrysler conversion in 57 thru 59. Any ideas?

I've taken many detail pictures, in hopes that somebody can help.:)

The back door uses a GM door handle. and the latch mechanism and catch are both identical to my '58 Cadillac.

The car has A/C, but it isn't a factory set-up, according to the trim tag...still it looks like it was installed professionally.027.jpg029.jpg030.jpg031.jpg033.jpg038.jpg054.jpg039.jpg
 
Brad, please allow me to tell you that I am very happy this rare beauty has a good home. I think I may speak for many of us, when I say that I sure would love to see this diamond in the rough, fully restored to it's original glory. Best of luck with it.
 
I do believe that we decided at the time it's a universal. but I'll give you a hint on trying to ID it. pictures taken straight on ,whole car from the side and from the rear and front. are better then any close up. most of these car were built from the cheapest one around. if the buyer wanted ac the aftermarket add on unit was put on at the plant.
 
Zoom out, man! ;)

As for the coachbuilder, for the moment, I think we can rule out Memphis, the most common choice. They used a custom side door, which had a straight top edge. This one uses a standard 4-door sedan back door, with the slope down. That was more common of Weller short-wheelbase conversions. Comet is also a possibility with that. That's where I'm leaning, but I don't think I have enough information to say for sure.

Experts? Jump in.
 
Steve Lichtman said:
As for the coachbuilder, for the moment, I think we can rule out Memphis, the most common choice. They used a custom side door, which had a straight top edge. This one uses a standard 4-door sedan back door, with the slope down. That was more common of Weller short-wheelbase conversions. Comet is also a possibility with that. That's where I'm leaning, but I don't think I have enough information to say for sure.

Experts? Jump in.
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I am by far no expert on professional cars but I totally agree with your assessment here regarding the rear passenger door window in terms of helping to identify the coachbuilder. This is a tough one to identify and determine but the curved top windows will at least help rule out what coach builders it wasn’t, thus narrowing the reaming options.

This thread is ironic because recently I emailed Walt McCall and asked his help in identifying a bunch of rare never before published / posted pictures of various professional cars I have and this same Desoto question came up in that discussion.

The Desoto image I have though is of a 1958 Desoto and as Steve said above, the image I sent to Walt had the custom rear passenger door with a straight top edge. Also in that batch of images was a 1957 Plymouth standard-wheelbase station wagon ambulance conversion made by National Coaches Inc Knightstown Indiana and it has the same curved type rear windows your car has.

This is what Walt said about the images and the 1958 Desoto;


Walt McCall –Thanks for sharing these. Some great images here. I'll identify them from the top down.

Top photo:

1958 Desoto standard-wheelbase station wagon ambulance conversion. Not 100% sure who did the conversion, but looks like a Comet to me. The Comet Coach Co. was located in Memphis, Tenn.
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Hope this helps. Thanks Again for these wonderful images: made my day! – Walt
Click to expand...
 
Interesting!

Well, I know that my DeSoto started life as a 4 door sedan. All the Chrysler Corp cars from 57-59 shared a common body for the 4 door sedans; the Plymouth and Dodges received doors with solid metal window frames. The DeSoto and Chryslers received doors with aluminum frames. This also carried over to the station wagon bodies. But the station wagons had a smaller fin than the regular line, and a modified light housing on the rear of the fin, that allowed all the Chrysler makes to insert a taillight assembly that closely resembled the 2/4 door sedans and hardtops.

So, if you look at the side view of any of the 57-59 Chrysler Corp cars that have been converted, and they have a full fin and tailight assembly, they won't have started out life as a wagon...:blahblah:IMG_20140811_194654.jpgIMG_20140729_140340.jpg
 
Cary,

For this new member (and all of us who are interested in learning) will you please provide further in-depth explanation of these construction techniques and details that lead you to your conclusion. Also might be helpful if you can post images to help us see these various points you might make.

thanks!
 
Brad,

I’ve looked at the images of your car here in this thread and the image of the 1958 Desoto Station wagon Ambulance I have (several times) and cannot determine any difference in the size or height of the tailfins, but then again I am no expert and the angle of the image I have might be part of the problem.

In the images I have of the 1957 Plymouth Station wagon and the 1958 Desoto station wagon ambulances both vehicles have front tunnel lights and the small rear roof marker lights (if that’s what they’re called). I know these are options that can be added for extra money in most coach builders and thought it was interesting that these two very different cars have the same option. The only difference in the front tunnel lights is the 1958 Desoto tunnel lights are more horizontal (level) whereas the 1957 Plymouth slightly angle upward in the front.


Moving along,

58clean.jpg



The image above shows a Memphian and the coach builder name is clearly seen on the front fender. Also note the flat top rear passenger windows opposed to the curved ones your car has.

Memphis Coach Co. (aka Memphian) was one of Memphis' "small 4 (Weller Bros., Barnette/Barnett, Comet/Pinner, and Economy/Memphis Coach)" professional car producers that flourished there in the 1940s-1960s. Located at 2087 York Avenue in Memphis, Tennessee and owned by J.K. Barnett they're best known for their Memphian Edsel, Pontiac, and DeSoto long-wheelbase ambulances.​


Source: http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/m/memphis/memphis.htm


Then reading the bio of each manufacture listed in Memphis and doing an image search I see images of older Comets and Memphians have coach builder name plaques on the vehicles. (Usually on the front end of the car) I do not see any images of Weller Brothers or Economy coaches but I did read this about Weller Brothers,

“They also converted a few Chrysler Corp. products, most notably a small number of standard-wheelbase Dodge military ambulances built in the late 1950s.”​

Source: http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/w/weller/weller.htm

Which leads me to think it might be a Weller Brother Conversion is there are no name plates or builder data plates with company names, and the fact that if they were converting such small numbers and had a small budget they might have found it easier to use regular 4-door sedans to base their modifications on rather than the more expensive station wagons models.

The other larger companies there used commercial glass and custom door frames and had uniformed roofs which cost more money to set up and build in larger numbers opposed to just building a couple conversions.

Therefore I’d lean more towards the Weller Brothers myself but again I am no expert but using the process of elimination this is what I come up with.58clean.jpg
 
The "Bible" shows a 57 Comet Desoto, and it looks nothing like this, and it was much longer. So unless they also built a shorter "Junior" model as Cary mentioned, Comet can also be ruled out.
 
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If you look at the 1957 sale brochure Steve linked (shown above) it shows the Comet Junior Series but look at the actual Desoto or Plymouth? Comet Junior, (lower center) the rear passenger windows are straight at the top (as is the car upper right) and not curved like Brads car in this thread or the 1957 Chevy that’s listed in this same sales brochure and the other Chevy also linked.

Therefore why would the sales brochure for the same 1957 year show a Comet Desoto that looks VERY different than Brads car? This is why I conclude it is NOT a Comet, but I’ll let others chime in here.
 
You would have to understand small coachbuilder standards in the 50's to understand the premise of the Comet JR. The surviving 57 Chevy JR was built off a 210 sedan ( if I remember correctly) with a most unusual window configuration. They would convert whatever you threw at them. The above mentioned DeSoto was merely converted from a 4 door sedan which was obviously a cheaper donor car than getting a wagon. The Memphian mentioned here was obviously a wagon conversion. I have one of the Comet Jr pages thats on ebay and studying details helps one identify minute details used on the Comet. :)
 
Cary Livingston said:
You would have to understand small coachbuilder standards in the 50's to understand the premise of the Comet JR. The surviving 57 Chevy JR was built off a 210 sedan ( if I remember correctly) with a most unusual window configuration. They would convert whatever you threw at them. The above mentioned DeSoto was merely converted from a 4 door sedan which was obviously a cheaper donor car than getting a wagon. The Memphian mentioned here was obviously a wagon conversion. I have one of the Comet Jr pages thats on ebay and studying details helps one identify minute details used on the Comet. :)
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Are you then saying back in the day people just bought they vehicles they wanted to convert and then took them to the coach builders and they did their work?

That seems so troublesome in so many ways including taking so much time trying to make so many different cars all with so many different issues. I can see a standard assembly of commercial glass and parts to make conversions easier but sure on a one off specialty car like a special order like a 57 Chevy but when you're already making say a Desoto why try to complicate it by making the same car have different glass and details?
 
here is the universal in that year. center doors are different so that still leads us to comet. but there center doors were squair also. now then if it was a CD ambulance it should have been purchased on a GSA contract and would have evidence of the tags in the glove box on on the dash. then of course there would be a number of them made also. but yes the smaller players would build on anything you wanted or sent them. you could buy a car have it dropped shipped to them at the closest dealer or drive it down. they would convert the car and you picked it up when it was done. standard practice.1958 Universal Detrote Mi. Desoto chassis.jpg
 
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Ed

this car you have pictured (1958 model) has a molded insert area for the rear license plate where Brad's does not, that and it has straight rear windows so again its a tough call.

this is a nice car! The image I have of the 1958 Desoto I notice has slight differences including side trim, the rear window and one or two other details.

do you know if this car you posted is still around?
 
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I believe this car is still around, and owned by John Ringdahl in Fergus Falls, MN. Tony Karsnia would be able to confirm that. In fact, the photo that Ed posted was originally taken by me many years ago. My records from the time I shot this car show it to be a Memphian.
 
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Terry Lange said:
I believe this car is still around, and owned by John Ringdahl in Fergus Falls, MN. Tony Karsnia would be able to confirm that. In fact, the photo that Ed posted was originally taken by me many years ago. My records from the time I shot this car show it to be a Memphian.
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If you notice the roof drip molding trim above the side windows you will notice that it ends behind the rear quarter window then angles downward almost the height of the window identical to the Memphian I posted earlier. Therefore with what I see I'd agree this too is a Memphian


A few issues or details I am noticing different on these various posted images or coach builders

  • Rear back window size and placement
  • Molded license place inside back door / opposed to a simple license plate holder
  • roof drip moldings on back door where it’s located and how far it comes down on each side of the window
  • roof drip moldings above side window line and where it ends or how far it comes down the side of the car.
  • Actual window lines - curved rear windows opposed to straight top trim
  • Side trim moldings
  • Builder plaque (or lack therefore)
 
James,

That is a beautiful DeSoto!! It is a Dodge based DeSoto, with the smaller chassis and Dodge front sheet metal. And it also started life as a 4 door sedan. You can tell by the higher fins, and also where the fins start. I forgot to mention earlier that the station wagon bodies have fins starting behind the rear doors, where as the fins on the 4 door sedans/hardtops start in the door itself. They did it this way to allow for the different Chrysler/DeSoto and Plymouth/Dodge doors on the shared wagon bodies. I do note that the DeSoto conversion above has custom squared off window frames on the rear doors, instead of the rounded ones on the factory doors.
 
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