1957 DeSoto CD Ambulance- who converted it?

[Brad Winder]

And the same goes for the green 58 DeSoto...

 

[James Douglas]

James,

That is a beautiful DeSoto!! (which one are you referring to, as all the images in this thread are beautiful) It is a Dodge based DeSoto, with the smaller chassis and Dodge front sheet metal. And it also started life as a 4 door sedan. You can tell by the higher fins, and also where the fins start. I forgot to mention earlier that the station wagon bodies have fins starting behind the rear doors, where as the fins on the 4 door sedans/hardtops start in the door itself. They did it this way to allow for the different Chrysler/DeSoto and Plymouth/Dodge doors on the shared wagon bodies. I do note that the DeSoto conversion above has custom squared off window frames on the rear doors, instead of the rounded ones on the factory doors.

I'm still a little confused on this fin thing as all the images in this thread seem to have the same size / height fins and they all appear to start in the middle of the door. The only exception to this is the image I have (which is not posted) of the 1957 Plymouth Ambulance which is easy to see the fins do not start until after the rear side door but then again its NOT a Desoto so its a different body altogether and therefore would only confuse things here in this Desoto discussion.

can you specifically show or indicate the differences in fins in the images that are already posted in this thread. thanks

 

[James Douglas]

Notice both these Memphians have molded rear license plate holders built into the rear door.

However the red and white ambulance has a much different rear quarter window that has a noticeable curve to it while the rear passenger door is straight at the top. This might simply be due to the year model change but that’s just a guess.

After further research the image I have of the 1958 Desoto which is not posted in this thread is definitely a 1958 DeSoto Fireflite Explorer Station wagon conversion due to the side trim on the doors which is identical to all Fireflite Explorer station wagons. This one was converted into a higher roof ambulance. I also agree with Walt it is probably a Comet but started out as a station wagon.

Also the 1957 Plymouth is also a 1957 DeSoto Fireflite Explorer Station Wagon ambulance conversion (National) with a higher roof as well. The 1957 ambulance looks exactly like the white Fireflite Explorer Station Wagon pictured by darbydun ¾ the way down Post #24868 - in reply to #22964 on the page at this link.

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=4185&DisplayType=nested&setCookie=1

On a side note Brad the image I have of the 1958 Desoto Fireflite Explorer Station Wagon conversion highroof ambulance (not posted) has the fins started in the middle of the door but doing a Google image search I now notice that the regular station wagons the fins do start just behind the rear door. This is confusing because the trim package is the Fireflite Explorer Station wagon trim while the fins start in the middle of the door. Hmmm?????

Brad PM with me an email address and I can email you the image I’m referring to; I just cannot post it here on this site due to the Website rules.

 

[Brad Winder]

Hi James,

All the 57-59 Plymouth, Dodge, Chrysler, and DeSoto station wagons used the same bodies, across all the lines. They were not used much for conversions, as they were more expensive, and they also had long back side windows, that curved around to the back door. They were hard to work with, so why pay more, just to hack it apart?

I've attached a couple pictures from "70 Years of Chrysler" by George H. Dammann. Notice how I snuck in the Ambulance one, to stay site legal...LOL!

The two pictures you posted above are both 4 door sedan conversions, as noted by the full fins. The shadow box license plate holders in the rear doors are snipped from the trunk lids of the sedans. Chrysler and DeSoto had them in 57-58, but not on the wagons.

All the 1957 DeSoto models got the same basic side trims. That changed slightly in 58; the Firedome and Fireflight models got a more "Plymouth" like sweep. The Flightsweep (lowest model) retained the '57 trims.

 

[John Royark JR]

I also have the green one listed as a Memphian.

Here is the picture of the 1957 Comet Desoto from the Bible, Tom McPherson's book American Funeral Cars and Ambulances since 1900.

 

[John ED Renstrom]

don't make me did out the post were Walt Mc said the green one was a universal the last time we got into this discussion about memphis coach.

what amused me is the station wagon discussion. bumper to bumper the car has to be about 40 inches longer then the wagon. you would need to have the extra length to have the divider in the car. the standard wheel base never had a divider. comparing trim to factory trim is moot also each after market manufacturer put on the trim the wanted to. made there own doors used longer but similar trim stock. amble wagon converted wagons some with different one piece back doors some with out. but any time you get a raised roof and divider you dealing with a stretched chassis. so far we have not seen a jr type comet on this chassis with factory doors. they are all extended squair top. all the pictures of cbs I have are square doors. so I think you can rule out cb. besides they did a good job of labeling their cars. here is a set of Comets in these years. pictures snage from a number of sources. but the direct side shots show the square doors on the stretch, the doors with squares top on the standard wheel base

 

[James Douglas]

Ok since we are all here discussing this topic in such depth I think it would be rude to email the images to just one or two individuals and not post them here for all to see and learn.

Brad, you posted these images and I’ve looked at them and studied them in depth

After looking at the images (above) which you provided I feel I can now try to identify the 1957 Chrysler Ambulance picture I have. I’m assuming the image I have is of a 1957 Chrysler Windsor Town & Country Station Wagon Ambulance with a raised roof. As I doubt they started with the more expensive New Yorker Town & Country model, but they might have… I’m no expert so you might be able to look at the image and know what station wagon model it is.


Also added options were tunnel lights in the front and marker lights (or whatever they’re called) on the rear roof. Not much cutting just basically adding a higher roof and rear door was all they did to the car.


This car was in fact manufactured by National Coach Company of Knightstown Ind. In this case the client actually purchased this as a station wagon and then drove it up to Knightstown for National to do the conversion.


National did not make very many Chrysler chassised ambulances in 1957 and this particular ambulance might be one of just a few produced. Someone else might have the production numbers on these National Chryslers for the 1957 year model but they were very few as national focuses primarily on Chevrolet and Pontiac’s. Therefore it goes without saying that this is indeed a VERY rare ambulance (as is this very rare image of it, which has never before been published or posted on line until today.)


Here is what Coach built has to say about the 1955-57 National models.

“Most 1955-57 National funeral coaches and ambulances were built on Chevrolet and Pontiac donors and were offered for the first time with a choice of two head-rooms and two wheelbases (standard plus a 30" extension). High headroom models were available with a choice of an awkward looking bi-level turtle back roof or the more attractive raised roof that gently sloped down to the top of the windshield. Chrysler- and DeSoto-chassised coaches were also available for extra cost, as were Buicks and Oldsmobiles.”​

Source: http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/n/national/national.htm


Image below is the 1957 National Chrysler (Windsor Town & Country Station Wagon???) Ambulance






_________



Now regarding the 1958 Desoto, with the information already posted in this thread by all parties, I now lean towards it being a 1958 Desoto sedan conversion with added side door trim that I see on the station wagon models. Since I am still unable to see or understand the difference in the tail fins (height & size) all I can go on, is the fact the fins start in the middle of the door. This is why I will say it appears the conversion started out as a sedan. Brad what do you think?

However what is interesting is that this particular car looks different than a Memphian and I have highlighted the differences I have noticed and numbered them. Here is the image below with the numbered issues clearly marked which I notice are different.




1. The side trim is what I see on other station wagons is this correct?

2. The rear passenger door is straight at the top and not curved like you car has.

3. The rear side quarter window has a different angle to it opposed to the Memphian

4. The roof drip moldings end horizontally at the top of the rear quarter roof and do not curve downward like the Memphians do

5. The placement and size of the rear window and the roof drip moldings curve downward a little

6. No “Memphian” name badge is on the front fender and this car is new at the time so it’s a good chance it’s not a Memphian and I also don’t see a Comet badge either.


Here the image without all the red circles and numbers so it can be seen much clearer



You’ll also notice the actual door frames around the windows are not as “thick” or wide as the Memphians, or maybe it’s just the angle or lighting??



This image below you can see the fin and taillight assembly better as well as the size and placement of the rear window on the back door.




After giving it some thought and knowing the same man purchased both of these ambulances new it is very possible that the 1958 Desoto is also a National. I’m just assuming here but he might have been so happy with his 1957 National Chrysler that he decided to also buy a 1958 model with the same optional tunnel lights and marker lights but in 1958 decided to use a Desoto instead of a Chrysler Chassis. This would also explain why a “Memphian” or “Comet” badge is not clearly seen in the image. When I speak to him I will get clarification and then post the findings.

Hope this helps a little and if in fact the 1958 Desoto is also a National it too is a VERY rare ambulance.

 

[John ED Renstrom]

if it is a National it will be clearly labeled as such. they were vary good about badging there stuff. every one of them will have a name tag on the right front foot well. they would build on anything you brought to them also. probably the biggest aftermarket manufacture to do so.

very interesting that chrysler offer a factory ambulance. I had not heard that before it does add some to the mix. if there is no other badging on the car and the factory tag is complete if may be a factory car. without any inside pictures one would not know if they put in a divider in or not.

 

[Kurt Arends]

if it is a National it will be clearly labeled as such. they were vary good about badging there stuff. every one of them will have a name tag on the right front foot well. they would build on anything you brought to them also. probably the biggest aftermarket manufacture to do so.

very interesting that chrysler offer a factory ambulance. I had not heard that before it does add some to the mix. if there is no other badging on the car and the factory tag is complete if may be a factory car. without any inside pictures one would not know if they put in a divider in or not.

Chrysler DID NOT BUILD a factory ambulance, however they were sold exclusively through Chrysler/Plymouth/Dodge/Desoto franchised dealers.

 

[James Douglas]

Ed

The images I posted are of Nationals, Brads car however is clearly not a National or he would have easily seen the builder plate and would not be asking, therefore its basically a process of elimination for him.

Brad where are we in the elimination process regarding identifying your car?

we know its not a National, no builder plate?

we know its not a Memphian, no badge on the front fender

we know its not a Comet as there is also no badge on the car

what else can we eliminate ???

 

[Kurt Arends]

Ok since we are all here discussing this topic in such depth I think it would be rude to email the images to just one or two individuals and not post them here for all to see and learn.

Brad, you posted these images and I’ve looked at them and studied them in depth

After looking at the images (above) which you provided I feel I can now try to identify the 1957 Chrysler Ambulance picture I have. I’m assuming the image I have is of a 1957 Chrysler Windsor Town & Country Station Wagon Ambulance with a raised roof. As I doubt they started with the more expensive New Yorker Town & Country model, but they might have… I’m no expert so you might be able to look at the image and know what station wagon model it is.


Also added options were tunnel lights in the front and marker lights (or whatever they’re called) on the rear roof. Not much cutting just basically adding a higher roof and rear door was all they did to the car.


This car was in fact manufactured by National Coach Company of Knightstown Ind. In this case the client actually purchased this as a station wagon and then drove it up to Knightstown for National to do the conversion.


National did not make very many Chrysler chassised ambulances in 1957 and this particular ambulance might be one of just a few produced. Someone else might have the production numbers on these National Chryslers for the 1957 year model but they were very few as national focuses primarily on Chevrolet and Pontiac’s. Therefore it goes without saying that this is indeed a VERY rare ambulance (as is this very rare image of it, which has never before been published or posted on line until today.)


Here is what Coach built has to say about the 1955-57 National models.

“Most 1955-57 National funeral coaches and ambulances were built on Chevrolet and Pontiac donors and were offered for the first time with a choice of two head-rooms and two wheelbases (standard plus a 30" extension). High headroom models were available with a choice of an awkward looking bi-level turtle back roof or the more attractive raised roof that gently sloped down to the top of the windshield. Chrysler- and DeSoto-chassised coaches were also available for extra cost, as were Buicks and Oldsmobiles.”​

Source: http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/n/national/national.htm


Image below is the 1957 National Chrysler (Windsor Town & Country Station Wagon???) Ambulance






_________



Now regarding the 1958 Desoto, with the information already posted in this thread by all parties, I now lean towards it being a 1958 Desoto sedan conversion with added side door trim that I see on the station wagon models. Since I am still unable to see or understand the difference in the tail fins (height & size) all I can go on, is the fact the fins start in the middle of the door. This is why I will say it appears the conversion started out as a sedan. Brad what do you think?

However what is interesting is that this particular car looks different than a Memphian and I have highlighted the differences I have noticed and numbered them. Here is the image below with the numbered issues clearly marked which I notice are different.




1. The side trim is what I see on other station wagons is this correct?

2. The rear passenger door is straight at the top and not curved like you car has.

3. The rear side quarter window has a different angle to it opposed to the Memphian

4. The roof drip moldings end horizontally at the top of the rear quarter roof and do not curve downward like the Memphians do

5. The placement and size of the rear window and the roof drip moldings curve downward a little

6. No “Memphian” name badge is on the front fender and this car is new at the time so it’s a good chance it’s not a Memphian and I also don’t see a Comet badge either.


Here the image without all the red circles and numbers so it can be seen much clearer



You’ll also notice the actual door frames around the windows are not as “thick” or wide as the Memphians, or maybe it’s just the angle or lighting??



This image below you can see the fin and taillight assembly better as well as the size and placement of the rear window on the back door.




After giving it some thought and knowing the same man purchased both of these ambulances new it is very possible that the 1958 Desoto is also a National. I’m just assuming here but he might have been so happy with his 1957 National Chrysler that he decided to also buy a 1958 model with the same optional tunnel lights and marker lights but in 1958 decided to use a Desoto instead of a Chrysler Chassis. This would also explain why a “Memphian” or “Comet” badge is not clearly seen in the image. When I speak to him I will get clarification and then post the findings.

Hope this helps a little and if in fact the 1958 Desoto is also a National it too is a VERY rare ambulance.

James,
This Desoto was definitely built on a 4-door sedan. It is very easy to tell if any Mopar conversion was built on a sedan or a wagon when looking at any '57 thru '59 model. Mopar-built station wagons built during those 3 years(whether Chrysler, Plymouth, Dodge, or Desoto) ALL used the same quarter panel sheet metal. Only the bright work was different. All 4 of those makes deviated in their quarter panel sheet metal on their other models. The fins on the factory station wagons from '57-'59 were very erect, while the factory sedan fins were canted outward.

 

[James Douglas]

Chrysler DID NOT BUILD a factory ambulance, however they were sold exclusively through Chrysler/Plymouth/Dodge/Desoto franchised dealers.

I'm just asking because I really don't know,

Who built the ambulance conversion then if Chrysler didn't?

the quote in the book leads one to think they did,

In addition to building plain wagons Chrysler continued to offer it’s ambulance conversions in both the Windsor and the New Yorker Series. The cars were available on special order through Chrysler dealers, but there is no record how many were built. This is the New Yorker version.

 

[Kurt Arends]

And all '57-'59 Mopar wagons used a different back bumper as well. The wagons did not have the flattened out exhaust ports in the back bumper.

 

[Brad Winder]

Image below is the 1957 National Chrysler (Windsor Town & Country Station Wagon???) Ambulance






_________

Yes, that is definitely a converted wagon, as seen by the fins, and the modified taillight housing. The housings were made to accept all four makes of lights, but didn't look similar to the regular lines of two and four door cars due to that fact.

 

[Brad Winder]

Ed

The images I posted are of Nationals, Brads car however is clearly not a National or he would have easily seen the builder plate and would not be asking, therefore its basically a process of elimination for him.

Brad where are we in the elimination process regarding identifying your car?

we know its not a National, no builder plate?

we know its not a Memphian, no badge on the front fender

we know its not a Comet as there is also no badge on the car

what else can we eliminate ???

Well , we know that it isn't a Weller Brothers, as there is no badging or even signs of holes where there might have been some badges. Plus I don't think it meets their high standards, from reading the book...

Now, I've seen that Memphis Coach and Economy Coach are mentioned together... was Economy a cheaper line that Memphis offered?

 

[Brad Winder]

BTW, if anyone doesn't have the book "70 Years of Chrysler" by George H. Dammann, you should try to find/borrow one. I know it's out of print...

It has lots of pictures of Ambulances, Funeral Coaches, and Police Cars from 1904 to 1974.

 

[Kurt Arends]

I'm just asking because I really don't know,

Who built the ambulance conversion then if Chrysler didn't?

the quote in the book leads one to think they did,

James,
The "Briarean" ambulances were sold through franchised Chrysler-Plymouth-Dodge-Desoto dealers in the late fifties and early sixties and were built by Richard Brothers. They were built on the New Yorker and Windsor wagons.

 

[Steve Lichtman]

...Now, I've seen that Memphis Coach and Economy Coach are mentioned together... was Economy a cheaper line that Memphis offered?

Economy Coach became Memphis Coach in 1955. They weren't two different lines, one succeeded the other.

 

[Jack Pinner - Deceased - 1942 - 2016]

57 DeSoto

Let me jump in here and give my opinion from a coach builder family. Some background:
When Guy Barnett closed there were 5 men that started Comet, Waldo Cotner, Bob Bevington, J. W. Pinner, Horace Davis and Troy Davis. The first 3 Comets were built in the garage behind our home in Memphis. After moving to the Lamar location Waldo and Bob bought out Horace, Troy and my dad. There was a non compete clause that delayed dad starting Pinner Coach until 1958 when he built his first coach, an Oldsmobile combination.
Everything points to it coming out of Memphis. In my opinion this coach is not a Comet, Pinner, Memphis Etc. A lot of the materials used in the conversions were purchased by all the Memphis companies. The rear glass from PPG, the interior moldings from Du-Stan Metal, and RCH supplied several other items.
I say it is a Weller. The interior trim moldings, rear door glass etc., were all available in Memphis. The exposed rear door hinges and original side doors headers are typical of Weller. Everyone else used hidden door hinges and straightened the side door headers to match the rear quarter window.
Jack Pinner
Pinner Coach Company
1958-1971

 

[Brad Winder]

Hi Jack,

Thanks for the analysis! I'm going to study any pictures of Weller coaches more. Anyone here have pictures not in the Weller book?