VIN questions

[Paul Steinberg]

did I miss something we jumped from the DMV to insurance. the DMV even in SD doesn't not have the box to check for hearse or ambulance in the one size fits all computer program they now use. you got to call it a station wagon to get the right body style. that and if you insist it's a hearse they want to sell you commercial tags for it. the same computer program is the one that insists you have the digits in the vin number. if the old title in PA was off the superior or MM or what ever it is number, you'll have to change it to the gm vin number. under the glass, on top of the frame in the rear and on the engine is all the locations so far. anyone have one more??

Miller Meteor didn't make sure that the cowl number matched the frame and engine numbers when they built the cars, so these numbers might not match with the cowl number. I learned this when I went looking for the engine number on my 1969 MM ambulance. While I was at the meet in Piqua, I asked one of the MM plant employees, and he explained that the chassis was delivered without the cowl, and then the cowl was delivered on a separate truck. If they got in 20 frames, then they got 20 cowls on that truck. They stored the cowls in a building across from the manufacturing plant, and would just get one when they started to build a body, without regard for anything except if it had air condition or not. That is because the cowls were different in that respect.

 

[Mike Boyer]

wow all I can say is.......thank God I live in canada ! lol

 

[Jim Popczun]

Had an issue here in Ohio with a 1969 Chevy passenger car with a VIN error on the title .

The BMV had me do a pencil etch on paper of the dash plate and submit that as proof of the real number when I applied for the corrected title.

Painless.

 

[Paul Steinberg]

Had an issue here in Ohio with a 1969 Chevy passenger car with a VIN error on the title .

The BMV had me do a pencil etch on paper of the dash plate and submit that as proof of the real number when I applied for the corrected title.

Painless.

How did you get a pencil etch without removing the windshield???

 

[John ED Renstrom]

Minnesota had the 70 Stoner listed on the title as recreational vehicle. it's now back to a station wagon as south Dakota doesn't have suburban as a option on there new computer program. but it only took one visit and the gal helped me figure it out. so here is the numbers on the 68 MM. it 15 deg out there so I did not try to clean off the engine number to see if it matches. it did on my 73 S&S. but it should be stamped on the flat spot of the block just in front of the left head behind the power steering pump on a 472. one thing of interest is the the MM serial number the GM vin number on this car match. it my first MM so be patent with me the CBs don't, nor did the S&S and none of the Superiors I have dealt with do either. don't pick on me I know the bushings are out of the upper a frame I'll get there soone I promass

 

[Dwayne Brooks]

I don't know when this was mandated to the automotive industry, but at some point all commercial chassis had a "Z" in the VIN#. This is a code for "an incomplete car" to be completed by someone other than the manufacturer. That's why some insurance agencies won't insure a hearse. It is built into their database to flag theses VINs because they see them as a huge risk since they weren't a finished car from the manufacturer.

I don't think Nikki has the correct VIN# yet based on this. My '66 Superior has a VIN# of Z6226--- and my '80 S&S has a VIN# of 6Z906A------- so back as far as 1966 they were using the "Z" and it is older than her coach. (the dashes each represent another number BTW)

This VIN info was learned when I insured the coaches through Allstate. Giving them the VIN# for the S&S the agent immediately said "What kind of hearse is it?" and I asked how she knew that. She told me of the "Z" story & how some insurance companies see commercial chassis coaches as un-insurable, she then went on to say Allstate even covers commercial glass and all other coach-specific parts. Nikki i'm guessing you've found a meanless body # or something at this point because you have a commercial chassis which WILL have a "Z" in it.

 

[Jim Popczun]

How did you get a pencil etch without removing the windshield???

Took a sheet of paper and tucked it up between the windshield and the ridge of the dash (where the VIN plate is on a 69) and then used the side of the pencil lead to reproduce the raised portion of the actual vin number.

Yeah, its a little tight in there (ok, a LOT tight) but it produced the desired result and made the DMV happy.
The VIN info on the title was missing one character , and had been that way for previous titles.

 

[Kevin M. Parkinson]

Z is for Commercial Chassis other than 1971

I don't know when this was mandated to the automotive industry, but at some point all commercial chassis had a "Z" in the VIN#.

This is true for all years EXCEPT 1971.

From 1960 to 1970, the General Motors VIN started with the Body Style Code. the Code for commercial chassis was "Z".

In 1971, the first digit was changed to GM Division. In Nikki's case, Cadillac, 6. The second thru fifth digits were Series/Model (replacing Body Style Code). Commercial chassis was 9890.

In 1972, the first digit remained unchanged. The second digit was changed to Series Code which brought back the "Z" for commercial chassis. The thrid and fourth digits represent Body Style, 90 for commercial chassis.

I only looked up 1960 through 1975 General Motors prior to this post because the car in question is GM.

I don't think Nikki has the correct VIN# yet based on this. My '66 Superior has a VIN# of Z6226--- and my '80 S&S has a VIN# of 6Z906A------- so back as far as 1966 they were using the "Z" and it is older than her coach. (the dashes each represent another number BTW)

This VIN info was learned when I insured the coaches through Allstate. Giving them the VIN# for the S&S the agent immediately said "What kind of hearse is it?" and I asked how she knew that. She told me of the "Z" story & how some insurance companies see commercial chassis coaches as un-insurable, she then went on to say Allstate even covers commercial glass and all other coach-specific parts. Nikki i'm guessing you've found a meanless body # or something at this point because you have a commercial chassis which WILL have a "Z" in it.

I agree that if you are talking about prior to 1971 or after 1971, your commercial chassis VIN will contain a "Z". 698901Q158471 is a correct commercial chassis Vehicle Identification Number for 1971.

 

[Nikki Brady Kellogg]

I guess my number has a typo then too. The title has a "0" rather than the "Q". I'll see if I can get some pencil lead and paper wedged into the corner. At least I have little hands, heehee.

 

[John Royark JR]

I guess my number has a typo then too. The title has a "0" rather than the "Q". I'll see if I can get some pencil lead and paper wedged into the corner. At least I have little hands, heehee.

Look real close, sometimes the stamp is a little light and the Q can appear as a O.
I hope all works out well, its almost time to get them out of hibernation!!

 

[Douglas Smith]

ugh I know your woes. I am currently trying to get the uncooperative previous owner to get me a notarized lost title form for north carolina dmv because that is the place it was last registered.

 

[James Maguire]

Nikki, I am registered in NY, and the body type is "Suburban". This a catchall word meaning, "we're not sure what else to call it." The VIN on my 1970 starts with "Z" and has too few digits - but honestly, all I had to do was tell the person at the counter, YES, that is the correct VIN, it was a hearse... They didn't give me any hassle on the class of registration. Where I DID have trouble, was originally I insured through progressive. After replacing my windshield, I decided that I should have added glass coverage... Once the person I got on the phone read "hearse" she insisted that I had the wrong coverage, and immediately cancelled my policy! She insisted that I needed to re-register as a commercial vehicle and get a new policy with their commercial insurance division. I tried very hard to get her to see reason - But found that you can't win some people over with logic... I mean... the car is over 40 years old... do you REALLY think it is still in service? Her position was that regardless of age or use, it COULD be used for commercial purposes, therefore was a commercial vehicle. The car is now insured with the gecko, who doesn't make any such absurd claims.

Also note that if you have "classic" insurance, you can use period correct NY plates as long as you have a matching pair and bring them to your DMV office. As for driving it around, my understanding is that classic insurance only allows for driving to and from exhibitions and annual mileage is severely limited.

 

[Denny Shira - Deceased - 1951 - 2020]

Registration problems

Niki,to save you the hassel,i just registered my 1970 caddy superior. I registered it with historical plates and antique auto insurance.historical plates are much cheaper,and you can drive your car anywhere as long as it's not to work,or for commercial purposes.many companies limit the miles that you can drive in a year but if you notify them,you can drive it further They may charge you a small extra premium for extra miles driven. NYS DMV will, as they did in my case accept a picture of the vin# as proof.many cars also have the vin# on the inside of the left front door.as for the weight,all dmv offices have book that lists the weights of all cars.listed weight for my 1970 cadillac is 5,800 lbs. suburban is the proper body designation.Also,your insurance card must say "HISTORICAL" on it or they will not accept it.the fee for historical plates is only $28.75 per year.My antique auto policy is with condon and skelly.I pay only $82.00 per year.(thats for 2 vehicles):bonk:

 

[Scott Avnaim]

Station wagon ???

Nikki, if you can, try to keep it titled as a hearse. Station wagons have rear seats. In Ohio that makes a difference in how it is registered if you get a bored cop with nothing better to do then hassle people for nothing. If you have an ID plate under the hood, remove it and bring it in to show the pinheads.

 

[John Royark JR]

Nikki, I am registered in NY, and the body type is "Suburban". This a catchall word meaning, "we're not sure what else to call it." The VIN on my 1970 starts with "Z" and has too few digits - but honestly, all I had to do was tell the person at the counter, YES, that is the correct VIN, it was a hearse... They didn't give me any hassle on the class of registration. Where I DID have trouble, was originally I insured through progressive. After replacing my windshield, I decided that I should have added glass coverage... Once the person I got on the phone read "hearse" she insisted that I had the wrong coverage, and immediately cancelled my policy! She insisted that I needed to re-register as a commercial vehicle and get a new policy with their commercial insurance division. I tried very hard to get her to see reason - But found that you can't win some people over with logic... I mean... the car is over 40 years old... do you REALLY think it is still in service? Her position was that regardless of age or use, it COULD be used for commercial purposes, therefore was a commercial vehicle. The car is now insured with the gecko, who doesn't make any such absurd claims.

Also note that if you have "classic" insurance, you can use period correct NY plates as long as you have a matching pair and bring them to your DMV office. As for driving it around, my understanding is that classic insurance only allows for driving to and from exhibitions and annual mileage is severely limited.

One thing about Progressive, which I have had for over 10 years, is in the Commercial class you can set the value on the car and they will pay that amount if it is totaled. I have had a couple claims on my coaches through them and they fixed them with no hassles at all.

 

[Scott A. Anderson]

This is true for all years EXCEPT 1971.

In 1971, the first digit was changed to GM Division. In Nikki's case, Cadillac, 6. The second thru fifth digits were Series/Model (replacing Body Style Code). Commercial chassis was 9890.

I'm looking the scans of the Colorado and Minnesota titles here on the computor for my 1971 M&M Cadillac Volunteer and the VIN starts out with 6 9899. When I transferred the title from Colorado to Minnesota last year, it lists the same VIN, but with just copying it over from the Colorado title, that makes sense. I have not gone to look at the VIN stamped on the car yet.

I'll check this out more thoroughly tomorrow or later this week. The car is shoe horned into the garage currently and access is difficult.

 

[Joe Rackov]

Miller Meteor didn't make sure that the cowl number matched the frame and engine numbers when they built the cars, so these numbers might not match with the cowl number. I learned this when I went looking for the engine number on my 1969 MM ambulance. While I was at the meet in Piqua, I asked one of the MM plant employees, and he explained that the chassis was delivered without the cowl, and then the cowl was delivered on a separate truck. If they got in 20 frames, then they got 20 cowls on that truck. They stored the cowls in a building across from the manufacturing plant, and would just get one when they started to build a body, without regard for anything except if it had air condition or not. That is because the cowls were different in that respect.

Paul,

It was my understanding that the cowls were attached to the frame at the production facility. On SOME GM vehicles there is a partial VIN number containing the year, plant code and sequential number stamped on the cowl behind the external (engine compartment) heater or A/C box. I can't verify if this is correct on a C/C, a NCIC book should have that information as it was never printed in the factory service manuals either.

And the statement by the MM employee that the cowls were shipped separately but not numbered would cause a nightmare with any warranty issues occurring with any GM installed component, i.e. HVAC, insturment clusters, wiring from the i.p. forward. GM would have no way to verify the equipment installed by the factory. And I really doubt that GM would open themselves up to a liability issue by shipping VIN tags unattached to a cowl. From my experiences in the 1970's (when we could still get replacement VIN tags from GM) it was no cakewalk to get one. Starting with the zone office, then to central office. The tag was supplied to a field rep from GM and attached to the vehicle while being witnessed by a sworn police officer.

Not saying that I am 100% correct, but this is from my experiences anyway.

 

[Paul Steinberg]

I have reread my posts, and I have no idea where you got the idea that I said that the cowls were sent without Vehicle Identification Numbers. What I did say was that the employees at Miller Meteor didn't match the cowl VIN to the frame that had a stamped VIN on it. The engines remained mounted on the frame, so if you were to try to compare the VIN on the engine block, with the VIN on the cowl, there is the possibility that they didn't match.
A while ago, someone posted a picture of a ambulance body being mounted to the frame, and you can clearly see that the cowl is attached to the body first, not last. You also can see that there is noting mounted to the cowl, such as heater boxes, etc. All this was added after the body was mounted onto the frame. This includes the dash and wiring. The body builders received all these parts separately.

 

[Joe Rackov]

I have reread my posts, and I have no idea where you got the idea that I said that the cowls were sent without Vehicle Identification Numbers. What I did say was that the employees at Miller Meteor didn't match the cowl VIN to the frame that had a stamped VIN on it. The engines remained mounted on the frame, so if you were to try to compare the VIN on the engine block, with the VIN on the cowl, there is the possibility that they didn't match.
A while ago, someone posted a picture of a ambulance body being mounted to the frame, and you can clearly see that the cowl is attached to the body first, not last. You also can see that there is noting mounted to the cowl, such as heater boxes, etc. All this was added after the body was mounted onto the frame. This includes the dash and wiring. The body builders received all these parts separately.

I agree, the cowl would have to be attached to the body first, in a assembly fixture. But for the numbered cowl to be separated and not attached to the corresponding numbered frame could cause a logistical nightmare at least for warranty administration by Cadillac ( or whomever)and for theft tracking (unlikely, but a possibility) with two different VIN numbers. Again, I suppose that the C/C frames could be unnumbered but the engines had numbering for traceability. I know of at least several cases that VIN numbers on engine blocks tripped up dishonest sellers or outright theft. It was not uncommon for service replacement engines not to have any numbers stamped on the block pad.

That is one issue that I can see with a used frame being installed in crashed vehicle. Not that uncommonly done today with insurance companies trying to save a buck or two. A lot of different scenarios could cause a frame VIN to be verified. And if a subsequent owner has the vehicle, no proof of the repair work, well......Just my opinion though.

 

[John ED Renstrom]

the cars we sent as incomplete drivable chassis to the after market manufacturer. were the cowl would be removed and put into the jig for the body to be built. like Paul stated it might not make it back to the same frame or it might. if your engine number match the frame number but the body did not it would not be out of the Nome. but it is one more place to check if they do. the front right frame horn is stamped on the 66 also. but it's on the top so with the car togather I don't know if you can see it