The Rim Reaper - 1953 Pontiac Hearse by Barnette

[Peter Grave - Deceased - 1938 - 2022]

Interesting the change perhaps a new dye and cheaper/easier to make dye???

 

[Bud Weishaar]

I am wondering if the ambulance models, having different body features, might have had that difference. It is worth having a look at other pictures to see.

Edit, it appears Bills is an ambulance LoL, knocks down that possibility. It looks from pictures like the Barnette may stop on the frame like mine and the Acme version goes straight across to the back door.

Definitely worth further inspection.

 

[John ED Renstrom]

every one of the different body builders did there own thing. national has square corners on there doors. smooth tops they had to add a corner to the front doors to do so. barnette is round corners but they only extended the factory upper door crease to the center of the b pillar.

I do not have the concrete proof as of yet but a lot of smoking guns that the one I have here is a Armbruster and company.

Bill's is a combo. not to move this tread I'll start another one and show you the evidence I have collected so far.

 

[Bud Weishaar]

Hoping to have my gasket set arrive in the next couple of days, looking forward to getting this beast back together.

 

[Bud Weishaar]

Gaskets are in and the head has been brushed clean.

Time to find a few replacement bolts and get the cover back on before I brush away the manifold area.

Any advice on whether to use a liquid gasket sealer or not? I am sure it would be a good addition for the paper and cork type gaskets, but what about the copper gasket for the head?

 

[Bud Weishaar]

Also some close ups of some dings and scratches on the top of the block.

 

[Paul Steinberg]

In the old days. sometimes it was glued to the block, but it shouldn't be necessary. If it is glued, it is a bear to get it off the next time. I have also seen a light film of oil put on one side of the gasket to allow it to move when torqueing the bolts. The most important is to torque the bolts in proper order, and to bring the torque up slowly, allowing the head to stretch. I would start at 30 PSI, and then work it up in 10 or 15 PSI increments. You are not being paid by the hour, so there is no rush of time. After the engine is running for a few hours, torque the bolts again to the manufacturers spec. Some people install the head bolts dry, and others install them with oil on the threads. Oiled threads will lessen the resistance and might lead to over torqueing the bolts. I was taught to install dry, but times change, and I don't know what the present beliefs are. In the "old" days, we would reuse the old bolts, and the head bolts on new cars are designed to stretch when installed, and not to be reused. I look forward to Peter Grave and Dan Scully weighing in on this matter, since they also have a lots of experience.

 

[Peter Grave - Deceased - 1938 - 2022]

With regard to head bolts Clean the threads on a wire wheel. Its important so as not to throw torque readings off, No oil on threads just not a good idea (my opinion). Head gasket old days put gasket glue on gasket, Today install gasket dry because todays gaskets are made better and it is unneeded . VERY IMPORTANT you follow tightening sequence in you manual. DO NOT tighten all at once bring up in three or four rounds follow sequence each time. Intake and exhaust manifolds, I recommend taking to machine shop and having planed to make sure surface true, this prevents leaks and cracking manifolds. The factory way is loosen intake and exhaust manifolds where bolted together to line them up however the bolts usually break off unless you heat cherry red with a torch before you try to loosen the machineing takes this step off the ballot. Make sure you blow all dirt out of intake and exhaust ports to prevent sucking dirt into the combustion chamber. After its running for an hour or more retorque head again follow sequence. Lastly if you want to adjust valves do so before installing manifolds MUCH easier. Questions on this I can answer for you it is not a fun job.Close the heat riser you don't need to heat base of carb with todays gas. As for thermostat my view leave it out it will run cooler and you are not going to use in winter so no need for heater. The Pontiac Eight is a smooth quiet relativly powerful engine that with the exception of the valves is easy and cheap to work on. My first car in 1954 was a 41 Pontiac eight and I thought it was great and yes I did do a valve job on it.

 

[Paul Steinberg]

I like to see a minimum of a 160 degree thermostat in all engines, so they don't run cool on the highway. The biggest cause of sludge in an engine is that the engine isn't hot enough. 160 is cold enough that it will not cause overheating, and warm enough to prevent sludge.
On the heat riser, I would burn out the butterfly on it, so you don't have to be concerned with it accidently closing and directing unwanted heat to the base of the carburetor.

 

[Peter Grave - Deceased - 1938 - 2022]

I never run thermostats in any strait 8 they run hot enough by nature if you insist on one my vote would be a 140, problem is keeping valve seats cool enough in hot weather. When I worked at Packard in 1958 we had some early 50s late 40s cars come in cracked between valve seats from heat. We had a guy "The Chain Lock" man come in he fixed the crack with some kind of a system that worked. Problem is the Pontiac has a long tube that runs from the water pump the length of the motor it sprays water on the base of the valve seats like all of us with age it does not spray as well thus my feeling keep it cool. I agree on the sludge issue EXCEPT todays oils are FAR better than yesterdays so I don't think sludge is in the picture today. As far as heat riser goes ITS STUCK so taking a hammer and bending if need be the butterfly so the butterfly is closed will keep heat off the base of the carb. thus less chance with todays gas of percalation. Removing the valve completely assures heat on the carb just as if it were still stuck. I have never had one stick when it was not heating the carb. Then folks wonder why when they stop for a burger and a beer the thing cranks so long before it starts, crank voltage low, battery is too hot, and carb perked down and its half flooded.

 

[John ED Renstrom]

think on the butterfly. if you close it, it forces hot gas to the base of the carb. you want it open on that one. most of them freeze in the close position. and thats what burns out the the crossover. I can do pictures tomorrow but to lazy to go out in the dark tonight. but remember the spring is heat activated so that as it expands it opens the heat riser. I'm with Paul on this one just cut the butterfly out and from the outside it looks fine.

the valves look good if you haven't messed with the adjusters don't.

now me I have seen all kind of stuff slobbered on a gasket. but don't on the head. one side on the cork will keep you from fighting them. a thin layer of any of the new gasket material is all you need. to much and it ends up floating around in the engine and plugging things up.

be good to hear it run

 

[Peter Grave - Deceased - 1938 - 2022]

Sorry ED I think we have a semantics issue here. By saying I want the heat riser valve left open I mean so NO heat flows to the base of the carb. all exhaust flows to the head pipe not to the base of the carb. When OPEN it would flow to the base of the carb.we are saying the same thing just definitions different. That being said if you remove the valve (flapper)as you and Paul suggest the heat will be going to the base of the carb full time nothing to stop it. Thus my saying hammer the stuck flapper so it prevents hot exhaust from reaching base of carb.

 

[Jacob M. Fournier]

Some people install the head bolts dry, and others install them with oil on the threads. Oiled threads will lessen the resistance and might lead to over torqueing the bolts. I was taught to install dry, but times change, and I don't know what the present beliefs are.

With regard to head bolts Clean the threads on a wire wheel. Its important so as not to throw torque readings off, No oil on threads just not a good idea (my opinion).

I just wanted to weigh in on the oil vs. dry when installing your head bolts. I don't see this as being a matter of opinion, this is a case where you need to follow the recommendations of the manufacturer's service manual (or at least a reputable aftermarket repair manual.) I generally don't work on car engines, but the diesel engines that I typically work on specifically state to lubricate the head bolt threads with engine oil before installation and torquing. (Generally, head bolts are the only ones that is recommended for.) If you lubricate the threads, and the manual doesn't call for it, you will over-torque the head, if it calls for lubrication, and you don't do it, you will under-torque the head.

I'm with Peter, if you are reusing the head bolts, make sure you clean the threads well - I also like to run a tap through the holes in the block to make sure those threads are clean (unless it also serves as an oil passage - you don't want to risk metal particles in the oil system.)

You shouldn't need any gasket sealer on the head gasket.

 

[John ED Renstrom]

Peter your right it just depends on what your calling open or closed. to me closed is shutting off the exhaust opening to force the gas threw the crossover before it can exit.

dragged out the spare will really it promised to Bill for his. just waiting for me to carry it out to Rick so that he can drop across and take it home.

this one is frozen in the dump position. here you can see the cross over molded into the intake. when the butterfly is positioned so that it directs the gas up it runs threw the intake and out the port making things very hot.

as the spring expands it moves the valve into the dump position letting the hot gas flow out freely. as I have never had one with a working valve I don't know if it will close at the top shutting off the cross over or not.

the suggestion was to cut the tin fins off the butterfly and leave the rod and spring thus letting the gas flow.

good info on head bolts. some things I don't get into and never thought about.

 

[Paul Steinberg]

After seeing the pictures that Ed posted, I can see how the heat riser works on this Pontiac engine, and it is the same as on my Chevrolet. When the heat riser is closed, it directs the exhaust gasses to the base of the carburetor, and when it is open, the exhaust gasses flow directly out the exhaust manifold into the exhaust system. If he were to cut the butterfly out of the heat riser, then the only exhaust gasses that would get to the carburetor base are the slight amount that normally gets there when the heat riser is open. With the butterfly cut out, the exhaust will flow directly to the muffler and pipes, and virtually no heat will be sent to the carburetor. If you look at the riser, you can see that when it is closed, all the exhaust gasses go up toward the carburetor, and exit through the small hole in the exhaust manifold back down to the exhaust pipe. For this reason, I must respectfully disagree with Peter Grave, and agree with Ed.

 

[Peter Grave - Deceased - 1938 - 2022]

Two things of interest on our debate here. I don't have a Pontiac manifold off, went and checked a Buick today that is off. In the case of the Buick moving the flap to the closed position so no exhaust flows to the base of the carb effectively keeps the carb cooler. From Eds pictures the Pontiac is different and yes removing the flap would work. I also consulted two Pontiac shop manuals and the Motor Manual for info on gasket gook and headbolt oiling. The following comes forth. Gook on head gasket YES in moderation two out of three latest one has no mention of using gook. Oil headbolts, Yes one with a mixture of white lead and oil on threads,other two no mention of oil at all the mixture one was the oldest. Two out of three a warning to blow all head bolt holes out with air to prevent dirt bottoming headbolt out in block. All three clean headbolt threads carefully. I also remembered another thing to do from my Packard shop days we used to take a small high speed hand held grinder and take the sharp edge off the perimiter of the combustion chamber where it met the head gasket to prevent hot spots on the sharp edge that would cause ping.This was from the service manager not any manual.

 

[John ED Renstrom]

good info on the head bolts. I'm wondering is they were using the white lead as an anti seize. these flat head engines were prone to rusting in place.

I sprayed heated taped and sprayed heated and tape and sprayed . finally got the butterfly to move. so not to be confusing lets call it cold position and hot position.
cold it lays across the opening. air come in top of intake goes threw the engine and out to the exhaust ports. collected in the manifold dumps into the diversion chamber just on top of the butterfly, that is now in the cold position.
it's blocked from going out so it's directed up through the intake on the engine side. goes across the intake and out on the fender side threw a port that opens under the butterfly and out.

thats one the poncho straight 8. I only know this because I have had to change mine. if they freeze in the closed position the chamber gets really hot on the engine side and brakes there as the gas can't flow properly. there are a couple porting holes to restrict it on the fender side of the intake also.

we get so use to all the V8s working the same we forget that straight engines up to mid 50 were all built in a different divisions and they did not work the same.

 

[Peter Grave - Deceased - 1938 - 2022]

WOW!!! The Pontiac set up strangles the engine when the heat riser is on if it is stuck on the heat must be wild. I can sure see how things would crack. The Buick is much different I will revisit tomorrow and follow up. You haven't lived till you have to pull a head on a 54 Senior (359 cubic Inch) Packard with an aluminum head that has had the wrong anti freeze used and the head has fused itself to the studs no bolts on a Packard. Would you believe three days to get a head off in pieces? As to the white lead remember no Never Sieze in those days. Finally I sure agree chop the butterfly out on the Pontiac nothing to loose. After seeing the pictures its the way to go.

 

[John ED Renstrom]

Heat is a problem, one of the few cars I have seen with a heat shield under the carburetor from the factory. then the fact that the tin butterfly is not welded to the shaft just spring loaded. it can turn on it by itself the whole setup is a invitation for a disaster.

but once you get it running and take that first lap in it you will know what fun is.