I would put the origional ones back in and have somebody hit the breaks very very slowly with the rear drums off and see what is going on there.. Se how far the shoes are pushing out. The same with the ones you have,, Since you already spent that much having them made you might be able to just shave them down just a hair..
Hearse Brake mystery solved
- Thread starter Ricky Jones
- Start date
all you'll do there is blow out the cups. but it sound to me like some on need a different man working on the car. open the bleeders push the shoes in place and close the bleeders. put the drums in place bleed them and go back to work. if the he has done this and he still can't get the shoes to go in place then he should know how much it needs to be trimmed to get the shoes to rest were they should.
Ricky -
Have you checked the inside diameter of your drums? If they've been turned several times over the years, the increase in inner diameter can result in poor contact with the shoes, even new ones, as the curve of the brake shoe is designed to work with the original diameter of the drum. Improper contact will cause poor braking. Also, check the brake lines, the rubber flex lines can collapse internally, and prevent enough brake fluid from getting to the wheel cylinders to properly actuate the brake shoes.
Just a few thoughts, maybe you've already checked that stuff.
As a side note, the Cadillac parts book I had handy (which is a later edition) shows all Cadillacs, 60-66, as using the same "brake cylinder connecting link" (Part No. 509233) - no differentiation for the commercial chassis.
Have you checked the inside diameter of your drums? If they've been turned several times over the years, the increase in inner diameter can result in poor contact with the shoes, even new ones, as the curve of the brake shoe is designed to work with the original diameter of the drum. Improper contact will cause poor braking. Also, check the brake lines, the rubber flex lines can collapse internally, and prevent enough brake fluid from getting to the wheel cylinders to properly actuate the brake shoes.
Just a few thoughts, maybe you've already checked that stuff.
As a side note, the Cadillac parts book I had handy (which is a later edition) shows all Cadillacs, 60-66, as using the same "brake cylinder connecting link" (Part No. 509233) - no differentiation for the commercial chassis.
Part number 509233 measures 2 1/16" long, and has a 13/64" slot.
thanks for the input
Have had two other shops work on the brakes in past years. This mechanic
with many years of experience is highly recommended here. Hope he can figure it out.
Have put new drums, shoes,wheel cylinders and rubber lines in the past with no effect.
Ive never had to open the wheel cylinders and let out fluid in order to get the drums on any brake jobs Ive done. Once bled and back in operation I think that they would return to same extended position and rub on the drums.
Thanks for the part # and size Paul. Total length of my old ones are a little less than 2" long with little less than 1 3/4" from inner slot to ball end that goes into wheel cylinder. New ones just made are exactly 1/4" longer both points and look to be WAY TOO long. Shoes stick way out.
I wonder if the Raybestos Doorman (WC34475 &74) are really the correct wheel cylinders? Got them from Coopers Vintage and Rock Auto shows it correct # for Commercial Chassis
Maybe if they were wrong ones they might not extend far enough out when
fully extended. Paul can you help? Correct parts #s?
Thank you
RIcky
Have had two other shops work on the brakes in past years. This mechanic
with many years of experience is highly recommended here. Hope he can figure it out.
Have put new drums, shoes,wheel cylinders and rubber lines in the past with no effect.
Ive never had to open the wheel cylinders and let out fluid in order to get the drums on any brake jobs Ive done. Once bled and back in operation I think that they would return to same extended position and rub on the drums.
Thanks for the part # and size Paul. Total length of my old ones are a little less than 2" long with little less than 1 3/4" from inner slot to ball end that goes into wheel cylinder. New ones just made are exactly 1/4" longer both points and look to be WAY TOO long. Shoes stick way out.
I wonder if the Raybestos Doorman (WC34475 &74) are really the correct wheel cylinders? Got them from Coopers Vintage and Rock Auto shows it correct # for Commercial Chassis
Maybe if they were wrong ones they might not extend far enough out when
fully extended. Paul can you help? Correct parts #s?
Thank you
RIcky
Daniel Scully
PCS Member
Brakes
This info is from the EIS brake parts book from 1964. 62 has some odd combinations. According to the EIS book 62 CC except Miller Meteor body's use a EW 2941 and 2940 which has a 1'" bore and the MM body uses a EW 34475 Ew 34474 which has a 1 1/8th bore. Regardless of the bore size the return springs should pull the shoes back ,pushing on the wheel cylinder pins pushing the wheels cylinders back. The drum should just slip on without anything other than to make sure the star wheel is backed off. This info might help. 62 is the first year for a dual master cylinder .At this point it is going to be hard to identify the problem after all the previous work has been done,any chance you have all the orginal parts ? I always keep old parts such as this for either future reference or possible rebuild later on .
This info is from the EIS brake parts book from 1964. 62 has some odd combinations. According to the EIS book 62 CC except Miller Meteor body's use a EW 2941 and 2940 which has a 1'" bore and the MM body uses a EW 34475 Ew 34474 which has a 1 1/8th bore. Regardless of the bore size the return springs should pull the shoes back ,pushing on the wheel cylinder pins pushing the wheels cylinders back. The drum should just slip on without anything other than to make sure the star wheel is backed off. This info might help. 62 is the first year for a dual master cylinder .At this point it is going to be hard to identify the problem after all the previous work has been done,any chance you have all the orginal parts ? I always keep old parts such as this for either future reference or possible rebuild later on .
Attachments
Thanks Daniel.
I could not find any EW2940 & 41 however the EW2940 & 41 cross to Raybestos WC4803 & 04.
Maybe this wheel cylinder pushes the pins out further.
Ricky
I could not find any EW2940 & 41 however the EW2940 & 41 cross to Raybestos WC4803 & 04.
Maybe this wheel cylinder pushes the pins out further.
Ricky
the only thing that will push the pins out father is more fluid forced into the cylinder.... shoes on back wards will not let it work to it full extent either. but lets clear up the problem. brakes not working. all components have been changed to new, brakes still not working. so now you had new pins made a 1/4 longer. now the drums will not go on. so lets see why. are the shoes touching the stop on the top. #1 if not bleed the excess fluid out of the cylinder #4 to compensate for the longer pins #3. this will let the pins go deeper into the cylinder. if you still can't get the shoes to touch then remove the long pins. but if you can get it to touch they will not move out from this position untell you push on the master to put more fluid in the slave. as the pressure is relived on the master the shoes will return with the spring to the position they were in. or if the shoes are tight on top then move the adjuster #2 till the drums go on. then after it goes on bleed and adjust the brakes as you would normally.
the put the park brake on just a little then you have brakes says to me that they were never adjusted probably to began with and that was your problem all along.
the put the park brake on just a little then you have brakes says to me that they were never adjusted probably to began with and that was your problem all along.
Attachments
The brake linings from 1959 through 1979 (and possibly later) are all the same size, however, the web, the metal part of the shoe changes a couple of times through that time period. If the shoe itself is wrong, that will give you a problem. Just because the shoe fits, doesn't mean that it is correct for your application. The wheel cylinders must be correct for what you are calling the "pins" (parts book calls them links), and the shoes must also be matching to the rest of the parts. At this point, I believe that you are in need of a complete brake assembly from a 1962 to make sure that all the parts are correct. Lacking that, possibly some pictures that you could compare your parts to.
I will check with the shop and ask them to bleed out and push link (pin) into wheel cylinder and give that a try. Have had the rear brakes adjusted many times. So tight the rear wheels were somewhat hard to turn even.
If I had a NOS pair of brake shoes to compare that might help.
Has anyone out there with a 1960 to 62 CC done a wheel cylinder change and can tell me what part # you used?
Thanks Ricky
If I had a NOS pair of brake shoes to compare that might help.
Has anyone out there with a 1960 to 62 CC done a wheel cylinder change and can tell me what part # you used?
Thanks Ricky
Daniel Scully
PCS Member
Thanks for going to the trouble of posting the parts list.
The 32071 and 32072 list as Napa Best Brakes 61 front wheel cylinders for Cadillac De Ville.
The 13368 lists as 1960 all excluding CC (left rear) also lists as 1960 Series 75
Fleetwood.
So I am still not sure on the correct wheel cylinders for 1962 CC.
Ricky
The 32071 and 32072 list as Napa Best Brakes 61 front wheel cylinders for Cadillac De Ville.
The 13368 lists as 1960 all excluding CC (left rear) also lists as 1960 Series 75
Fleetwood.
So I am still not sure on the correct wheel cylinders for 1962 CC.
Ricky
check your drum and then look at the shoes. the wear pattern should be straight across the drum all the way around. the shoes will show how much of them is contacting the drum. it should be at least 90%. as stated all ready the only time I have had this problem is when the drums were cut to far. or like in the case of his 70 suburban the drum has a hard spot in the canter that will not cut out. it is most likely from overheating the drum. the new drums should have had a dress up turning to make sure they were square not tapered. if the shoes are hitting on only the edge it will have the same effect
Please keep the discussion on the rear brakes, since putting in information about the front brakes is just going to confuse the situation more than it already is.
EIS # EW2940 (LEFT) # EW2941 (RIGHT) 1" BORE
NAPA/United and Wagner numbers are the same...
If your car is a Miller Meteor, then the rear wheel cylinders are a 1 1/8" bore.
EIS # EW34474 (LEFT) # EW34475 (RIGHT)
Question about the master cylinder... Which side of the master cylinder does the steel brake lines come from.. The engine side, or the left fender side? How about some pictures of the rear brake assembly and the master cylinder / power brake booster.
The brake shoes fit from 1960 through 1968.. 12" x 2 1/2" Riveted
wheel cylinder
I have to drive the Pali mountain to other side of island almost every day so brake fade was an issue but not related to rear brakes never grabbing and shoes never wearing out.
I recently did a front disc brake conversion from a kit. Big improvement on mountain braking and fade in the front. Now the booster and master cylinder are different then the stock. Rear brakes remained same as they have for years whereas they only grab if you drive with the emergency brake a quarter way down.
Silly question, the 1960 to 1964 Corvair wheel cylinder pins are the same as CC Cadillac Hearse for those years? Thanks for the info Paul.
I asked my mechanic to bleed down the wheel cylinders as John had suggested in previous post in order to push the pins in then mount the drum. See if that works. Thanks John.
Ricky
I have to drive the Pali mountain to other side of island almost every day so brake fade was an issue but not related to rear brakes never grabbing and shoes never wearing out.
I recently did a front disc brake conversion from a kit. Big improvement on mountain braking and fade in the front. Now the booster and master cylinder are different then the stock. Rear brakes remained same as they have for years whereas they only grab if you drive with the emergency brake a quarter way down.
Silly question, the 1960 to 1964 Corvair wheel cylinder pins are the same as CC Cadillac Hearse for those years? Thanks for the info Paul.
I asked my mechanic to bleed down the wheel cylinders as John had suggested in previous post in order to push the pins in then mount the drum. See if that works. Thanks John.
Ricky
The pins are the same based on the part number that was posted by someone else in a previous post. As for the bleeding of the rear cylinders, if they are holding pressure, then there is a problem in the system piping. It might be a collapsed rubber hose, or a damaged to the steel tubing to the rear brakes. You said that you had a disk brake conversion done to the front brakes, possibly that modification is where some of this problem was created??? Is the person that did this conversion to the disk brake system also the person that is dealing with the rear brake problem? If so, then they should understand the braking system sufficiently to diagnose and repair this current problem.
so now that we know your not dealing with a factory system. one can say that your not getting enough fluid to the rear brakes. did this kit include a proportioning valve? in all honesty by decreasing the amount of fluid in the slave cylinders you may have solved the problem. but to me it sounds like the balance is off in the system. the new master may be ok for the new front disks but it's not got the volume to push enough fluid into the slave cylinder to expand the rear brakes. or your hooked up backwards on it. front reservoir should be the rear brakes.
Hard to diagnose from thousands of miles away, but it sounds like Ed is on the right track with a proportioning valve issue.
Just to be clear, are you saying you has this rear issue before you did the disc brake conversion in the front? After you put the disc brakes in front, how did it drive? Did it lock up the fronts in a panic stop and do nothing in the rear? That's the kind of problem a proportioning valve will solve.
Ed also brings up another important point that can sometimes be overlooked, that a disc/drum master cylinder has two chambers that are different sizes, because they move different amounts of fluid, and they are sometimes the reverse of what you would think, I.e. the front chamber is for the rears, and the rear chamber is for the fronts. A good mechanic should know this, but wouldn't hurt to check.
Just to be clear, are you saying you has this rear issue before you did the disc brake conversion in the front? After you put the disc brakes in front, how did it drive? Did it lock up the fronts in a panic stop and do nothing in the rear? That's the kind of problem a proportioning valve will solve.
Ed also brings up another important point that can sometimes be overlooked, that a disc/drum master cylinder has two chambers that are different sizes, because they move different amounts of fluid, and they are sometimes the reverse of what you would think, I.e. the front chamber is for the rears, and the rear chamber is for the fronts. A good mechanic should know this, but wouldn't hurt to check.
no rear brakes for years
It has been like this since I got the Hearse. Very poor braking. Only with the emergency brake on would the car really come to a proper stop. Rear shoes never wear out but it got to the point where often I would drive with the emergency brake on slightly. So I have had to change the rear shoes a couple of times.
To make things worse I got brake fade big time on the mountain drive. Thats when in desperation I had the front disc conversion done. As I said helped with the fade alot. However still poor braking unless the emergency brake is on. Master is for a front disc rear drum vehicle and the rear brake line is at front of master. Come to think of it after the front disc conversion when the emergency brake is engaged slightly when you brake the car really stops on a dime.
One of the first things we changed was the rear hoses which were for Hearse and longer than for sedan. No bent or evident damage to metal lines.
No back pressure in lines.
Seem to recall Ive had the front lock up on hard panic brake in wet conditions a couple of times before the conversion to disc. Its as if the rear brakes do nothing so all the braking is in the front.
I did the conversion. It was a kit and aside from part of bending pipes and connections its not difficult. Yes it leaked and did not look clean. So I took it to a brake place that really knows how to do lines. He redid the lines, bled it and fixed all my leaks.
The mechanic I took it to now is old school and really good. Still waiting to hear from him.
Thanks
Ricky
It has been like this since I got the Hearse. Very poor braking. Only with the emergency brake on would the car really come to a proper stop. Rear shoes never wear out but it got to the point where often I would drive with the emergency brake on slightly. So I have had to change the rear shoes a couple of times.
To make things worse I got brake fade big time on the mountain drive. Thats when in desperation I had the front disc conversion done. As I said helped with the fade alot. However still poor braking unless the emergency brake is on. Master is for a front disc rear drum vehicle and the rear brake line is at front of master. Come to think of it after the front disc conversion when the emergency brake is engaged slightly when you brake the car really stops on a dime.
One of the first things we changed was the rear hoses which were for Hearse and longer than for sedan. No bent or evident damage to metal lines.
No back pressure in lines.
Seem to recall Ive had the front lock up on hard panic brake in wet conditions a couple of times before the conversion to disc. Its as if the rear brakes do nothing so all the braking is in the front.
I did the conversion. It was a kit and aside from part of bending pipes and connections its not difficult. Yes it leaked and did not look clean. So I took it to a brake place that really knows how to do lines. He redid the lines, bled it and fixed all my leaks.
The mechanic I took it to now is old school and really good. Still waiting to hear from him.
Thanks
Ricky