Mike McDonald
PCS Member
60 Minutes
I think we should ask "60 Minutes" to investiage this including an interview with Bobb Kosoff! MM
I think we should ask "60 Minutes" to investiage this including an interview with Bobb Kosoff! MM
JFK Pontiac ambulance up for auction
- Thread starter Tony Blair
- Start date
John ED Renstrom
PCS Member
but if you state to me publicly that the car was purchased at government auction and I find out from more then one source the true car was never sold as surplus property. then it cast doubt on all your documentation. all you did here was retell the scenario that I gave up a few posts. I think it's possible it could be the car(50/50) because I can see how it could have gotten into the container also. but now the skullduggery trying to link the numbers cast doubt. this was only done because BJ want the numbers linked and who ever did the research missed the library connection to the car. or there are to many people still alive who can state what is true, to use it. there has to be a record of excess property being sold in 85. there should be some record of them receiving the car in 1980. or the transfer of it from the navy. but I would bet that the records would not show the numbers BJ wanted. once a lie is put out you got to stick with it. the documentation linking the numbers from a man not in that position to a co no longer in business with the wording you know this was the car that carried Kennedy in it, is to pat to believe. the library to a salvage yard to a privet owner, had the car been titled would be easy to see.
John ED Renstrom
PCS Member
Another non-truth!
The Pontiac ambulance transported the President from Bethesda to the White House, NOT the U.S. Capitol!
The Pontiac ambulance transported the President from Bethesda to the White House, NOT the U.S. Capitol!
John Burchfield
PCS Life Member
my $0.02
This has been a very interesting discussion. I was a little kid when JFK was assassinated and have only faint memories of the events. But having grown up during all of the publicity the assassination drew in subsequent years, it was REALLY interesting to take a "JFK tour" in Dallas when I was there a while back for a meeting. One thing that struck me was the topography of Dealy Plaza : imagine a triangle draped over a slight hillside; the motorcade arriving at the top of the plaza, turning right followed by a greater than 90 degree turn left in front of the book depository, then down the hill to the point where the President was hit. The two dimensions of photos and news footage can never convey that. The tour guide was very well informed. Being at all of those various places that were so well photographed was really something: the 6th floor, the location of the limousine, the grassy knoll, the point where Oswald shot the Dallas policeman, the theatre where he was arrested, then the garage where Ruby shot him, among others. As Darren mentioned, it is quite a captivating piece of history. Whether this '63 Superior Pontiac is or is not the actual vehicle used on Nov. 22, 1963, isn't it great that the PCS has been recognized as an authoritative group on this subject?
To me a number of questions are raised: One of the photos above shows the GM VIN plate attached to (I assume) the trailing edge of the driver's door with screws! Weren't these plates riveted in place? As to the VIN question, no one has followed up on Paul Steinberg's assertion that the VIN should be somewhere on a frame rail near the engine. The request/order from either Jackie or Bobby Kennedy for the car to be destroyed was supposedly made sometime in the days soon after JFK's death, but then we have reports that the Kennedy Library requested to destroy it during or after 1980. I gave up on watching the B-J auctions a few years ago due to all the hype, but does anyone have an idea when this ambulance will roll across the block? This one will be something to watch!
This has been a very interesting discussion. I was a little kid when JFK was assassinated and have only faint memories of the events. But having grown up during all of the publicity the assassination drew in subsequent years, it was REALLY interesting to take a "JFK tour" in Dallas when I was there a while back for a meeting. One thing that struck me was the topography of Dealy Plaza : imagine a triangle draped over a slight hillside; the motorcade arriving at the top of the plaza, turning right followed by a greater than 90 degree turn left in front of the book depository, then down the hill to the point where the President was hit. The two dimensions of photos and news footage can never convey that. The tour guide was very well informed. Being at all of those various places that were so well photographed was really something: the 6th floor, the location of the limousine, the grassy knoll, the point where Oswald shot the Dallas policeman, the theatre where he was arrested, then the garage where Ruby shot him, among others. As Darren mentioned, it is quite a captivating piece of history. Whether this '63 Superior Pontiac is or is not the actual vehicle used on Nov. 22, 1963, isn't it great that the PCS has been recognized as an authoritative group on this subject?
To me a number of questions are raised: One of the photos above shows the GM VIN plate attached to (I assume) the trailing edge of the driver's door with screws! Weren't these plates riveted in place? As to the VIN question, no one has followed up on Paul Steinberg's assertion that the VIN should be somewhere on a frame rail near the engine. The request/order from either Jackie or Bobby Kennedy for the car to be destroyed was supposedly made sometime in the days soon after JFK's death, but then we have reports that the Kennedy Library requested to destroy it during or after 1980. I gave up on watching the B-J auctions a few years ago due to all the hype, but does anyone have an idea when this ambulance will roll across the block? This one will be something to watch!One of the letters from Steve Davis posted in this thread stated that they had verified the VIN in four places on the car, but didn't explain any further. I don't have the time to go back and find it right now.
I have heard both the 17th and the 22nd as dates for the car to be auctioned. 22nd makes more sense since it is a Saturday.
John ED Renstrom
PCS Member
yes BJ did check the body, engine and frame along with the superior number and the navy number. it's in here some were. they all match the letter from the rear admiral and the return from superior. how superior knew what number the navy assigned there car number 404 is a mystery. along with why the admiral did not sign off as USNR as he had been for 2 years at the time of this letter. but mysteries are what life is all about. in the shape it's in it's a 5000 dollar car at best. my money is on it going overseas and disappearing once again. but time will tell
I worked for the DOD fire dept. for over 30 years. I believe that when equipment was ordered from a manufacturer, be it an ambulance, fire truck, dump truck, etc, the series of registration numbers that would be assigned to a unit were supplied to the manufacturer so that they could be stamped on the nomanclature plates and applied to the sides of the vehicles. I was able to go to the Pierce Fire Apparatus factory in the mid 80s when the Navy was buying new fire trucks. Each unit had a sheet of paper taped to it with the Navy registration number and destination of which base it would be assigned to along the assembly line. Completed vehicles were being stenciled with registration numbers and "For Official Use Only" at the factory. I would guess this was also the proceedure for vehicles purchased in the 60s as well. This would explain how Superior would know the Navy registration number of a production vehicle under a DOD contract.
I think B-J has pretty well established that the VIN number on the plate matches the VIN number stamped elsewhere on the car. I'll concede that, it's a numbers matching car in that respect.
Mike, that's interesting, I would not have thought the manufacturer would have known the military ID#. That does change my opinion of whether Superior would have known the Navy ID# - they might have. (Still doesn't explain the letters from/to a RADM who retired two years before.)
We can be nearly certain that the ambulance was transferred to the Kennedy Library, and sent out to be destroyed. We don't know with certainty if that actually happened. One thing I'm trying to find out is if the Library has any record that shows the VIN number of the car they had. That will tell us if the car is the same one the Library had, or not.
What I read indicated it would sell on Saturday, the 22nd. I would think this is the headline car of the auction, so since this is televised live on Speed Channel, expect it in Prime Time Eastern.
Mike, that's interesting, I would not have thought the manufacturer would have known the military ID#. That does change my opinion of whether Superior would have known the Navy ID# - they might have. (Still doesn't explain the letters from/to a RADM who retired two years before.)
We can be nearly certain that the ambulance was transferred to the Kennedy Library, and sent out to be destroyed. We don't know with certainty if that actually happened. One thing I'm trying to find out is if the Library has any record that shows the VIN number of the car they had. That will tell us if the car is the same one the Library had, or not.
What I read indicated it would sell on Saturday, the 22nd. I would think this is the headline car of the auction, so since this is televised live on Speed Channel, expect it in Prime Time Eastern.
The 22nd is the date I have received also in the emails that have been sent around. If a definite time surfaces it'll be posted to this thread.
I noticed we have a new member tonight... Paul Hoch, a sincere welcome goes out to you, glad to have you here!
I noticed we have a new member tonight... Paul Hoch, a sincere welcome goes out to you, glad to have you here!
Out of all of this discussion I havent seen any evidence pertaining to the car being destroyed. When was it first seen,heard, or told that it was to be destroyed back in the day. I know that some vehicles that the govt. has do get stored away and forgoten about and then sold at auction when they decide to (clean house). I guess all in all Im curious as to where the car being destroyed came from. Was there an official document saying it was to be destroyed or is it all hearsay from the start?
John ED Renstrom
PCS Member
that's what we are looking for now. evidence that it went to the library and if it was this vin numbered car and evidence that it was disposed of. destroyed means different things to different people. if the library took it to a salvage yard and sold it. it then belonged to the yard. what they did with it would have been the yards option depending on the amount of money they could make on it. as of yet no one has presented any evidence of how it got from the navy to privet hands. just that the numbers on the car match the numbers on the documentation that was given to BJ. there is no evidence that this documentation is true or false. just a lot of things that look strange about it. the paper trail is vary cold on this car. the same as the JFK one.
I can understand how it would be hard to find out where it went after the Navy, simply because my combo went from the funeral home it was at and then magically got in the hands of the shrinners and then to two people before me. The funny part is that I cant find out when it left the funeral home and where it was when the shrinners got it nor can I get a straight story from the last two owners of where they got it and how long they had it.
So I can see how people have trouble finding every detail on the JFK ambulance. So the question is where did the phrase it was to be destroyed come from? Was it the library the Navy or who?
Thats whats confusing me because so far there is more evidence and proof that it is the real deal than it being a different car.
Thats like saying my combo doesnt exist because I dont know where it was between funeral home and shrinners!!!
Just to let everyone know Im not trying to start a fight or get anybody riled up. Im just curious about this car.
So I can see how people have trouble finding every detail on the JFK ambulance. So the question is where did the phrase it was to be destroyed come from? Was it the library the Navy or who?
Thats whats confusing me because so far there is more evidence and proof that it is the real deal than it being a different car.
Thats like saying my combo doesnt exist because I dont know where it was between funeral home and shrinners!!!
Just to let everyone know Im not trying to start a fight or get anybody riled up. Im just curious about this car.
Dan Brintlinger's 1988 letter from his congressman stated that permission was granted to the Kennedy Library to destroy the car. If that was done or not we do not know at this point. I'm not even sure we know if the ambulance even was at the Kennedy Library, but if it was there should be a record. As for who said Bobby Kennedy ordered it destroyed I'm not sure we know. Just another rumor would be my guess.
Here is a copy of the letter that member Dan Brintlinger received from his Congressman. This is what we have, SO FAR, documenting the fact that the Kennedy Library had the ambulance. Now, the Navy stating that they understand it was destroyed isn't actual evidence that it WAS destroyed. We're still working on that. I'm in touch with folks at the Kennedy Library, they are looking.
Attachments
John ED Renstrom
PCS Member
notice the difference in the letters. this one refers to the car as the navy ambulance not by numbers. complete letter head with return address and all. but a man in that position I would guess. (can't say ). it refers to transfer ownership of the car. so tell me who owned the car. the library or the goverment? requested permission from the archivist says it was owned by the goverment still at this point. the libary was to have possision of it. permission granted to destroy government property. if the library owned the car (had clear title to it) they would not need permission to dispose of it. so this tills me the car is still government property. just like the dinosaur bones dug up on trust land that were seized and latter sold by the government for 8 mil.
one would have to see if the order was destroy or dispose of. if it was ordered destroyed then it's not been properly disposed of and subject to government seizer at any time. the money, if it is sold belongs to the goverment like any other fossel found on goverment land. the more we dig the less likly I would ever bid on this car.
one would have to see if the order was destroy or dispose of. if it was ordered destroyed then it's not been properly disposed of and subject to government seizer at any time. the money, if it is sold belongs to the goverment like any other fossel found on goverment land. the more we dig the less likly I would ever bid on this car.
It's possible the library took the car on some sort of agreement or understanding that it would be displayed as a historic piece or at least preserved as a historic piece. If that were the case, it would make sense that the library would ask for permission to destroy or otherwise dispose of the vehicle, even though they may have technically "owned" it.
Received from the Kennedy Library today:
Letter from the Kennedy Library showing the timeline of their ownership, and documenting that the ambulance was destroyed on June 26, 1986, with the signature of the curator of the museum and witness signatures. This also shows that the serial number of the ambulance they received from the Navy is not the SN of the car being auctioned.
Also a photo of it at the scrap yard, taken by a government photographer.
I'm waiting on a photo of it being/been scrapped.
Letter from the Kennedy Library showing the timeline of their ownership, and documenting that the ambulance was destroyed on June 26, 1986, with the signature of the curator of the museum and witness signatures. This also shows that the serial number of the ambulance they received from the Navy is not the SN of the car being auctioned.
Also a photo of it at the scrap yard, taken by a government photographer.
I'm waiting on a photo of it being/been scrapped.
Attachments
Wow. Is there any aspect of President Kennedy's presidency that is NOT shrouded in mystery, or conspiracy?
So, in light of this new evidence, the real question that needs to be answered without a doubt is what was the VIN/serial number of the actual car that transported Kennedy? All we really know for sure is the number on the door.
It seems more likely that the one pictured in the junkyard is the one, but it is still possible that the library received a car that was thought to be the correct one, but wasn't (if the documents presented by BJ are correct and authentic). If they are fakes, then someone is pulling a very convincing fast one. Unless I am missing a bit of information somewhere that ties all these identification numbers together that is not under dispute, about the only way to possibly resolve the issue is to start involving experts at dating documents, paper, ink, typewriters and handwriting to verify the validity of the documents that have been presented. There are experts that could tell if the BJ documents are fake or not by dating the materials involved, but I'm not sure anyone is going to go that far.
At the very least the car should be pulled from auction pending further investigation.
So, in light of this new evidence, the real question that needs to be answered without a doubt is what was the VIN/serial number of the actual car that transported Kennedy? All we really know for sure is the number on the door.
It seems more likely that the one pictured in the junkyard is the one, but it is still possible that the library received a car that was thought to be the correct one, but wasn't (if the documents presented by BJ are correct and authentic). If they are fakes, then someone is pulling a very convincing fast one. Unless I am missing a bit of information somewhere that ties all these identification numbers together that is not under dispute, about the only way to possibly resolve the issue is to start involving experts at dating documents, paper, ink, typewriters and handwriting to verify the validity of the documents that have been presented. There are experts that could tell if the BJ documents are fake or not by dating the materials involved, but I'm not sure anyone is going to go that far.
At the very least the car should be pulled from auction pending further investigation.