Who made the best cars?

[Jim Staruk]

Here’s a little, informal opinion poll: In the pre-Accubuilt era, of the major conversion companies, for overall quality, who made the “best” coaches and ambulances and who made the “less desirable” ones in the 50's through the 90's?

Eagle
Eureka
Federal
Krystal
Miller-Meteor
S&S
Superior

 

[Mike Stevens]

opening a can of worms

Jim,
Have you ever heard the one about not discussing religion or politics? I think this will be a hard one to get a common answer on. I will start with voting for Hess & Eisnhardt in Cincinnati, Ohio.
Now let us get some more opinions.
Mike

 

[Mike McDonald]

Having owned a couple of S&S's (a 1964 Park Row Combination and a 1973 S&S Medic Mark-I) both of them seemed to be a very quality built product coupled with S&S's own "self-promotion" of offering the most expensive coaches built (more money = better?).... and seeing in the recent Classy Cadillacs posts(s) about "generations" of the Groce Funeral Homes and other solid firms buying them along with being the official White House provider for decades, I would say that H&E / S&S would have to be right up there, if not on top.

When I asked that question of Ron Hast of "A&H" about 10 years ago his answer was definately EUREKA. The 1956 METEOR-Cadillac Ambulance we restored from the Moffat County Memorial Hospital in Colorado was amazingly "near perfect" as far as all panels, trim and windows fitting, like-new all leather interior, and NO rust from what should a have been rust-out life in Craig Colordao, and for sure if it had been a Criterion for instance with no forethought of drains in the rockers, doors etc. from the factory. That's my 2 cents! MM

 

[Steve Loftin]

How high is up?

Too many variables, too many opinions...

 

[Russell Street]

As Steve stated, too many variables, however just for the sake of simplicity I list them best to least best as follows:

S&S best, M&M second, and Superior bringing up the rear. Keep in mind, there ain't a dimes worth of difference between them (IMHO).

BTW, get the popcorn, this one COULD get good in a hurry!!

 

[Josh Gentry]

As far as quality,

As far as quality built goes, I'm gonna have to go with S&S, with M-M falling very close behind, then Superior. I think it really all depends on how well the car was taken care of, stored, and treated over the years.

Josh

 

[Steve Loftin]

How high is up? - Part II

Too many variables, too many opinions...

There are also too many builders and too many chassis choices over the last century. What parameters would you use...style? Construction methods and materials? Size? Features? Functionality? Longevity? Drive train? Innovations? Price? Market share/popularity?

How would you compare a 1940 Henney/Packard with or against a 1959 Flxible/Buick? How would you rate a Weller/Ford against an S&S?

Target markets have to be considered when discussing which product is (or was) best for what job. For instance, large ambulance fleet operators in the '60s and '70s will confirm that Cadillacs held up better, lasted longer, and overall were more reliable and less costly to maintain than the Pontiacs, Oldsmobiles, Suburbans, and vans. Then comes the question of lifelong cost of ownership (maintenance, insurance, fuel, depreciation, etc.). I think that the lifetime cost of owning an S&S, for instance, even though the initial purchase price was higher, was equal to or lower than a "lesser" car.

For overall drive train reliability, nothing can beat the Cadillac 472/TH400 combination offered from 1968 through 1974.

My opinions for the best built and most reliable procars over the years:

1910s - Cane & Breed
1920s - Cunningham
1930s - Cunningham, Henney
1940s - Meteor, Henney
1950s - Meteor, Flxible, S&S
1960s - Flxible, S&S
1970s - S&S
1980s - Eureka
1990s - Eagle

If I had to choose a combination of all the factors mentioned above, it would have to be the 1935-41 Henney, 1950-70 S&S, and 1949-52 as well as 1959-64 Flxible products.

 

[Paul Steinberg]

Eagle, Federal, & Krystal were not even brands until much later than the starting period you include, the 1950's. You also left out one of the brands that was popular in the 1950's... Henney. All manufacturers went through periods of time when the quality went from good to bad, and it is difficult to pin down exactly when that time period started or ended. Some say that the Superior line of cars started to deteriorate when they were taken over by Sheller Globe. Others believe that once Wayne Corporation took over both Miller and Meteor, that was the beginning of the decline. If you look at both the Miller and Meteor companies, they both made a quality products. Others will say that Henney was in a state of decline by the 1950's. These are not my opinions, but the varied opinions of many when discussing these type of reflections about the professional car body builders.

 

[Douglas Smith]

The S&S hearses I just saw from the 70s looked very tacky on the inside at least. My 73 superior looks like at one time it was very nice on the inside and I like the trim a lot better.

 

[Tom Hoczyk]

Over the years I have owned a nice sampler platter of Superior, M&M, S&S, and Eureka. In talking with coach building luminaries such as Tom Caserta from M&M, Willard Hess from S&S, Walt Cassens from Eureka, and Joe Bunn of Superior, I was always impressed with their stories about heartfelt desire for craftsmanship and quality leaving with their finished product.

In my experience with coaches earlier than 1976, the care that these cars got by their owners over the years seems to outweigh the perceived quality built into them. To be sure, S&S was a fine builder, and Willard Hess told me that his concept for the Victoria was to be like a fine tuxedo: simple and elegant. Compare that with Eureka, in my opinion the most flamboyant of the lot. I happen to like flamboyant, and personally think that the design and quality of Eurekas from Rock Falls is every bit as good as S&S, despite being the 2nd in cost to the funeral industry. Superior and M&M were always in strong competition with each other, supplying very attractive coaches to the budget-minded funeral and ambulance firms.

In the end, if neglected during their service years, they all rust out and the interiors get beaten up. I've seen horrible S&S coaches, and spectacular Superiors. Another thing to consider is production numbers. Superior and M&M produced perhaps 10 times the number of cars (just a guess) as did Eureka and S&S. This gives us fewer samples for comparison. All this being said, though, for survey purposes, S&S and (Rock Falls) Eurekas are without peer.

Tom

 

[Brad Ross]

Eureka gets my vote for pre-1965. After that, I feel that it depends on what year as to who made the best.

 

[Richard Vyse]

I've owned more M-M's than anything else with two currently in my stable. I did own a 72 Cadillac 3-Way hearse by S&S and, personal opinion here, I would have to say it was a more quality car compared to the others.

 

[Chris Elzie]

I have never had any experience with Eurekas, but they look to have be a fine manufacturer, but I have to say S&S would be the best built to me. I just never figured out why S&S after using that thick vinyl top over the years why they never bothered to coat or even paint underneath it to help prevent it from rusting, to me that seems to be the worst thing about them. Out of the S&S's I have owned and found the body's held up great but the tops rusted out or had rust.

 

[John Royark JR]

I have ownes many pro cars from all the makes over the years and have not really found one better than the other. It depends on the year to me which brand I prefer because of the styling. As an example, I once owned a 49 Eureka and currently own a 49 S&S, which is in better condition, but I would take the curves of the Eureka over the S&S any day. I like the downsized S&S coaches compaired to the downsized Superiors because I love the coach lamps used. When it comes to the small FWD coaches I like Superior/S&S, but hate the Eureka coaches.
Its like the Ford VS. Chevy debate, I prefer the Chevys, but have owned many of each and have not found one really any better than the other.

 

[John ED Renstrom]

for me it's the one that starts, that the doors open and close on and the paint hasn't fallen off from yet. lay one your back on the ground and look at them they were all a rough body. the edge lines on the S&S and over all fit are a lot better then most. with MM coming in just behind them. the hand made Eurkia's were nothing but quality. to me in a league of there own, the care that went into there simple interiors extended to the top of the line. no cover ups in them. but the wood frame up to 56 make them vary hard to keep. the same for a lot of the smaller builders. they had the time to fit things. were the mass produced boys had to make allowances for speed. but like stated, we have so few examples of there craft that we can't compare them. so each has there own good and bad. the use of different materials on the superiors drives me crazy. but this last set of 60s has some vary nice construction features. I love those Oldsmobile's. CB did a few things different from MM but they share the same quality of construction. there frame is second to none. a beautiful job of extending it. compared to superiors Pontiac's. so to me it's the one that everything works on. the one that runs good and things do what they are supposed to when you move the controls. there is nothing doggier then a luxury car that the stuff is broken on. when all the cover up trim doesn't quite cover up. like a Lady in a fine dress with the torn edge of there slip hanging down. don't hurt the running of it none but sure throws you off track when you see it.

 

[Douglas Smith]

I just never figured out why S&S after using that thick vinyl top over the years why they never bothered to coat or even paint underneath it to help prevent it from rusting, to me that seems to be the worst thing about them. Out of the S&S's I have owned and found the body's held up great but the tops rusted out or had rust.

Boy was I guessing that was the case with this weekend after seeing the top of this S&S. Perfect example of what you are talking about.

 

[David Martin]

Putting a full paint job on a roof that was going to be partialy or completly covered by vinyl was very common in the passenger car industry back in the day. I know it was prevelant in at least GM.

When I was in the business one local Olds dealer never factory spec'd a Vinyl roof...It was added at the dealer after delivery with what I'm sure was a healthy markup.

 

[Ron Devies]

My 2 Cents

I spent most of my career working out of Superiors and a little out of M-M. I got to say I preferred the Superior over the M-M back then. Now it is hard to say. But I will say the workmanship of S&S beat both of them.

 

[Josh Gentry]

Boy was I guessing that was the case with this weekend after seeing the top of this S&S. Perfect example of what you are talking about.

The 72 Fleetwood 75 limo I had, was even worse than that. I will never buy another car with a vinyl top without checking it over really good first.

Josh

 

[Dwayne Brooks]

Since now we're touching on the longevity of coaches, i'm shocked some in the "rust belt" of the U.S. are saying Eureka is their favorite for the 1980's. Seeing that S&S on it's side with the roof rusted is awful. In this area you learn quick to run away from the 1980's Eurekas for kind of the same reason IF they've been outside for any length of time.

I've pursued buying so many hearses and for whatever reason the 1980's Eurekas literally fall apart, specifically where the roof meets the rear quarter panels. On several you could insert 4 fingers (laid flat) between the quarter & the roof. It's not so much a rust issue though, it's like they just start pulling apart in this climate. Also... is it true that Eureka commercial glass windshields are unique to all others? I've read horror stories on this subject is why I ask. Several friends online have this era Eureka & it seems most have that 4100 turd engine, another reason why I stay away from them.

Overall, I vote S&S for quality & holding up over time... and Superior for styling. The arched rooflines of the '60's are my favorite. However the 1950's vote goes to Eureka with ease, they are amazing.