Questions about the international meet judging

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Eric Gemzer

PCS Member
I know I’m pretty new to the PCS, I had a great time at the 2021 meet in Ohio and I hope to make it out to the meet in 2022. I just have a few questions about the show judging that I find a little hazy. From my understanding no one gets the score sheet back for their coach? Not real sure why that is, the sheet should be used as a checklist of sorts for each owner to look at for improvements. Also I couldn’t help but notice some things flew under the radar simply because people didn’t know, not trying to start any trouble but a non-procar won an award simply because no one apparently knows anything other than GM based coaches? If I’m out of line here just let me know but the Concourse’ judging seems a tad all over the place. Just wondering if some of this should be addressed before the 2022 meet?
 
Judging is not as tight as some clubs do. But if it is done constantly with each car the cream will float to the top. You can get your sheet by asking for it. You will need to point out what none pro car won any award at the meet. As i don't recall it. Judges are all volunteer most picked that day. Given a set of instruction then on what to look for, partnered with a person who has judged before and sent out. . As i said if each car is scored constantly the same way the better cars come up on top. But the best way to understand the judging is to do it.
 
John ED Renstrom said:
Judging is not as tight as some clubs do. But if it is done constantly with each car the cream will float to the top. You can get your sheet by asking for it. You will need to point out what none pro car won any award at the meet. As i don't recall it. Judges are all volunteer most picked that day. Given a set of instruction then on what to look for, partnered with a person who has judged before and sent out. . As i said if each car is scored constantly the same way the better cars come up on top. But the best way to understand the judging is to do it.
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Well, there’s a certain Lincoln that doesn’t fit the definition of “professional car” executive series is a trim level, a Lincoln towncar L would be the slightly modified one denoting 6 extra inches of rear seat compartment like 97-99 fleetwood that attended the meet. A towncar L being semi coach built would work I guess even though technically Ford motor company did the work where as the fleetwood of the same time was truly done by a coach builder. Don’t misunderstand I’m a diehard mopar guy but Lincoln’s are my second choice and I have had several. I’m simply pointing out its not a “pro car” by definition it’s a trim package denoting upgraded interior features and exterior trim.
Thank you for the response on the sheets as that was a little hazy but I also left before the official show ended Saturday evening.
 
Are the judging sheets available to the membership? Knowing what the judging standards are would be useful in setting the priorities while restoring / working on our cars.
 
After cursory examination of the winners list in 4th quarter 2021 issue of TPC I think I can add a little to Eric's comments.
He is right about the GM domination. Of the 31 motorized vehicles that won awards, only 3 were not GM products.
The make that came in second was Studebaker. How about that for skewing the numbers?
But that is the makeup of the industry sales, survivors, and cars in the PCS. I fully understand the outsider thing....

I believe the vehicle he is wondering about - and is it's pro car status - is Gregg Merksamer's 1997 Lincoln. This question has come up before.

Although the vehicle appears to be a run of the mill Lincoln Towncar, it actually has the Livery Package option, and they were used extensively for limousine service all over North America. In NYC for example a comfortable but low key vehicle was needed by corporations to transport all important executives from town to home and back without raising undue awareness, either for security or public relations purposes.
For many years the Lincoln Towncar was the top vehicle in that market.
 
Jeff Beyer said:
After cursory examination of the winners list in 4th quarter 2021 issue of TPC I think I can add a little to Eric's comments.
He is right about the GM domination. Of the 31 motorized vehicles that won awards, only 3 were not GM products.
The make that came in second was Studebaker. How about that for skewing the numbers?
But that is the makeup of the industry sales, survivors, and cars in the PCS. I fully understand the outsider thing....

I believe the vehicle he is wondering about - and is it's pro car status - is Gregg Merksamer's 1997 Lincoln. This question has come up before.

Although the vehicle appears to be a run of the mill Lincoln Towncar, it actually has the Livery Package option, and they were used extensively for limousine service all over North America. In NYC for example a comfortable but low key vehicle was needed by corporations to transport all important executives from town to home and back without raising undue awareness, either for security or public relations purposes.
For many years the Lincoln Towncar was the top vehicle in that market.
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But livery package making it a pro car then says all p71 crown vics count including taxis and ex police cars. None of which do count to my knowledge
 
My 2006 Town Car was a Cary Transportation vehicle originally. It was delivered with livery equipment, to wit a writing desk,separate rear seat cell phone,WI FI, Lap top power outlet,power rear seat Cary Transportation sail panel script,and it was the long rear door model
 
Peter Grave said:
My 2006 Town Car was a Cary Transportation vehicle originally. It was delivered with livery equipment, to wit a writing desk,separate rear seat cell phone,WI FI, Lap top power outlet,power rear seat Cary Transportation sail panel script,and it was the long rear door model
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Yes you had an L package with the long door, that is a “pro car” but Ford didn’t start doing those until 2001, in the 90s executive series just denoted base model trim
 
Now we get into the PCS club definition of a pro car. One of the founders of the organization specifically excluded police cars and taxicabs from our domain because the thinking was clubs existed for both of those vehicles.
"The Board of Directors shall issue specific guidelines from time to time which explain and delineate the vehicles so defined" see below.

My Studebaker is an example of a pro car that isn't cut in anyway. A conversion vehicle available in base trim, in this case done by Studebaker. Similar conversion vehicles done by Amblewagon also are considered pro cars, but both are just a station wagon with maybe a stretcher inside and not much else.
The Lincoln in question occupies the same area. And it was used in what is commonly referred to as livery service, meaning a hired driver with passengers considered clients, not riders as in the use of a taxicab hailed on the street.



The PCS definition from the bylaws:
1.3. DEFINITION OF A PROFESSIONAL CAR.
A professional vehicle shall be defined as a funeral, livery, or ambulance class vehicle having special coachwork executed on passenger-car styling. The definition may be expanded to include horse-drawn vehicles and vehicles taken from station-wagon and light-truck styling, and the Board of Directors shall issue specific guidelines from time to time which explain and delineate the vehicles so defined.
 
Jeff Beyer said:
Now we get into the PCS club definition of a pro car. One of the founders of the organization specifically excluded police cars and taxicabs from our domain because the thinking was clubs existed for both of those vehicles.
"The Board of Directors shall issue specific guidelines from time to time which explain and delineate the vehicles so defined" see below.

My Studebaker is an example of a pro car that isn't cut in anyway. A conversion vehicle available in base trim, in this case done by Studebaker. Similar conversion vehicles done by Amblewagon also are considered pro cars, but both are just a station wagon with maybe a stretcher inside and not much else.
The Lincoln in question occupies the same area. And it was used in what is commonly referred to as livery service, meaning a hired driver with passengers considered clients, not riders as in the use of a taxicab hailed on the street.



The PCS definition from the bylaws:
1.3. DEFINITION OF A PROFESSIONAL CAR.
A professional vehicle shall be defined as a funeral, livery, or ambulance class vehicle having special coachwork executed on passenger-car styling. The definition may be expanded to include horse-drawn vehicles and vehicles taken from station-wagon and light-truck styling, and the Board of Directors shall issue specific guidelines from time to time which explain and delineate the vehicles so defined.
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But on a 90s Lincoln executive trim indicated base model, so unless I guess a livery service purchased it new for livery use how can it be seen as a livery vehicle? I’m genuinely curious, for instance I understand my 2008 Dodge Grand Caravan that was converted for removal duty by Eagle coach is considered a coach built “hearse” when it comes to say the Guinness book of world records, but my 2002 town and country even though it is used for removals has landau panels and gurneys in the back is not as it was purchased by a little old lady in Florida originally and I bought it from her son 6 months ago. So I guess this is a gray area on FoMoCo products from the 80s and 90s?
 
Who bought the rig new has nothing to do with it being converted for funeral home use. Many a station wagon has been converted in the back room to ambulance service. It is quite rare to find one still converted. As for the Lincoln it's the same as the fleetwood 75. A factory built limo. Used by many a funeral home in there fleet. There is nothing fancy about any 6 door just a low end caddy striched. The key is used in livery service. Police cars and taxie cabs are not used in livery service. Though they may be the same style car they are equipped for one duty as is a fire chefs car. The head field judge sets the field at any meet. There word is law at that meet on that occasion. It up to them to allow or not allow a car on the show field. Once it is on it's judged as any other car on the show field. If anyone has a problem the next board meeting is the place to discuss it. We have done so on this Lincoln. It was deamed a factory limo by a majority of the board members present.
 
Eric, your 2002 T&C with landau panels and a stretcher used for removals would indeed qualify as a PCS vehicle.

In any event, why is the issue with Gregg's car an issue? Nobody is competing against his car and winning/losing an award because of it. Our cars do not compete against each other, they compete against the point score.
 
Steve Lichtman said:
Eric, your 2002 T&C with landau panels and a stretcher used for removals would indeed qualify as a PCS vehicle.

In any event, why is the issue with Gregg's car an issue? Nobody is competing against his car and winning/losing an award because of it. Our cars do not compete against each other, they compete against the point score.
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It’s not an issue. I have nothing against his Lincoln it’s in great shape it’s very nice car. He clearly takes care of it well and again I’m a Lincoln guy. I was just trying to understand the definition of pro cari guess.
 
When it arrives at the 2022 meet, we will judge it against the other one. Just give us 90 days' notice to get the other one here.
 
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