I was going to a cruise in today and my 73 Cadillac hearse cutoff and She won't start again. She turns over and you can smell the gas in the carb. Changed the coil didn't do anything different. This is not the first time this has happened. When I got Her, about ever year She would not start and the mechanic would change the points. I got tired of that and got a points eliminator. There has been no problem (so I thought), until last Halloween. I was less than a mile from home and She cutoff and would not crank. I changed the coil and She ran fine until now. I have talked to people that have had cars with points and most say they never had any problems with them. What would make points "burn up"? I was replacing them every year. I don't think the real problem was ever fixed, just covered up.
hearse won't start
- Thread starter Josh Horton
- Start date
your running to high voltage to the points. it should start on 12 volts then switch to 6-8 volts in the run position. if you don't have the resistor wire in place you'll burn up the points eliminator also. should be two set of wies on the hot side of the coil. one has 12 volts when the starter is engaged the other has the 6-8 volts when the key is in the run position. the 12 one shuld not have any voltage to it with the key in the run posision only the srart.
The pertronix system prefers to run on 12V
I'm inclined to say that you get what you pay for... I never got more than a year out of a set of points, in fact, much less. It was quite annoying. I switched over to the Pertronix system and was quite happy with it - I experienced better the better mileage and performance that they advertise. About a year and a half ago I had the same problem - turns out the Pertronix unit went bad. Unfortunately I had to have it towed, and the garage that had it put a new distributor in. (yes Paul, I made sure they gave me back the old one) Anyway - the electronics systems, can, and do, go bad... I would suggest you check your purchase date - they have a warranty. If you don't - they can ballpark the age of the unit by the serial number. (Pertronix) I sent them back the coil and the module, and they replaced both. I still haven't installed them though. I have been meaning to ask them what brand of points they used though, because while I DID have to adjust them this past week, they have held up great!
My .02 - if you saved the old points, condensor, etc... which you should have, put them back in and give it a whirl. That should get you back on the road while you figure out whether the electronic is under warranty. Be aware that the coil for the electronic ignition and the one for points are NOT the same! The electronic coils have a much lower resistance.
Also, as pointed out, if you go back to points, make sure you remove any bypasses of the ballast resistor.
My .02 - if you saved the old points, condensor, etc... which you should have, put them back in and give it a whirl. That should get you back on the road while you figure out whether the electronic is under warranty. Be aware that the coil for the electronic ignition and the one for points are NOT the same! The electronic coils have a much lower resistance.
Also, as pointed out, if you go back to points, make sure you remove any bypasses of the ballast resistor.
This is one thing a lot of shade-tree mechanics overlook (including myself, a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away) that causes them problems. When I was just getting into cars I decided to replace a bunch of wires that looked like they could turn problematic (smart, huh?), and one of them I snipped out and replaced with a pretty new wire was...the resistance wire. I didn't know that sometimes instead of a ceramic ballast type of resistor sometimes car companies used a wire that was spiral wound such that it was a specific resistance. Replace it with a regular wire and before you know it your car won't start.
The resistance wire is usually a piece of nickel wire that is encased in a white woven shield. In the 1960's the white woven shield was made of asbestos cloth, and then it was put into the wire bundle and the entire bundle was wound with black plastic wrap. Today, people think that this black wrap was electrical tape, however, there was no glue on it. When they got to the end, they just wove the wrap to itself. Today, you can find the black plastic wrap on eBay, but is is very expensive for some unknown reason.
A friend came over yesterday and we checked and there is no spark from the coil to distributor. I have two wires on the positive and two on the negative on the coil. One wire on the positive is spliced into a wire on the firewall, driver side. I don't know who did this, but don't think that's where it's suppose to go. There is no power to the wire with the key on or while turning the key. Here are a couple pictures, don't know if they will help at all.
coil wires
coil wire splice
coil wires
coil wire splice
quick fix. run a jumper wire from the + side of the battery to the + side of the coil see if she fires. don't run it long. but if it does the points and coil are OK. some one has chopped out the resistor wire and spliced IT into one other hot wire. you have been running 12 volts to the coil. bet you'll find there splice has given up or what ever they spliced into has blown a fuse. you need to re do your run wire and I'm till beating you fried the pertronitics. I can dig out the instruction and show were its stated you need the ballast resister but trust me it's there. find the hot wire off he ignition switch. there will be one that is hot when the key is in the run position. run a wire from it to a ballast resister. from there to the coil. you have your run circuit in tack. now you should have 12 volts coming up from the started so that when the key is in start you get the higher voltage to start the car. then when it goes to run you get the reduced voltage to run the car. don't mess with what ever they did just start over . then check the coil and the points. you should be good to go.
Where does the GREEN wire on the coil negative go?
Couple notes - Unlike the Pertronix unit we were talking about, the Accel explicitly states that it MUST be used with a ballast resistor, or eventual failure will occur. I see a few problems with your current setup.
I trust you have VERIFIED that the brown wire from the distributor is still connected to a clean ground?
On the coil negative - If the green is the wire to the points eliminator, then the black wire must be the old points trigger wire. This wire should be GONE. I'm wondering if perhaps the other end is still inside the distributor - maybe it even had a piece of electric tape which may have fallen off, and is now grounding on the breaker plate? In any event - disconnect it from the coil, and for the sake of neatness, remove it completely.
On the coil positive... in a word? Yikes! it looks as though there is a third spade lug peeking out on there - is that correct? Not sure of the color codes on your year, but in 1970, there would have been a yellow wire, and a white wire with an orange tracer. The yellow is battery voltage for start, the white/or is the ballast resistor feed. The only orange wire in my diagram is for the transmission downshift switch. If you look at the Accel diagrams, not only do they show the ballast resistor in use, they show ONLY the ballast resistor. My advice is as follows: get rid of that funky jumper wire for starters. My guess is that the ballast wire is broken, and that was someone's quick fix. The problem here is that the other wire going to the starter solenoid will only have voltage during cranking... get rid of that as well. Either fix the problem with the ballast resistor, or just run a new wire. On my diagram, the ignition feed is a 12awg Purple wire in cavity DY on the bulkhead connector. That's the second row up, the second cavity from the right. If you go this route, just get yourself a ballast resistor and make sure you put it in series with the wire.
I'd bet that in any event, the electronic module is toast.
I trust you have VERIFIED that the brown wire from the distributor is still connected to a clean ground?
On the coil negative - If the green is the wire to the points eliminator, then the black wire must be the old points trigger wire. This wire should be GONE. I'm wondering if perhaps the other end is still inside the distributor - maybe it even had a piece of electric tape which may have fallen off, and is now grounding on the breaker plate? In any event - disconnect it from the coil, and for the sake of neatness, remove it completely.
On the coil positive... in a word? Yikes! it looks as though there is a third spade lug peeking out on there - is that correct? Not sure of the color codes on your year, but in 1970, there would have been a yellow wire, and a white wire with an orange tracer. The yellow is battery voltage for start, the white/or is the ballast resistor feed. The only orange wire in my diagram is for the transmission downshift switch. If you look at the Accel diagrams, not only do they show the ballast resistor in use, they show ONLY the ballast resistor. My advice is as follows: get rid of that funky jumper wire for starters. My guess is that the ballast wire is broken, and that was someone's quick fix. The problem here is that the other wire going to the starter solenoid will only have voltage during cranking... get rid of that as well. Either fix the problem with the ballast resistor, or just run a new wire. On my diagram, the ignition feed is a 12awg Purple wire in cavity DY on the bulkhead connector. That's the second row up, the second cavity from the right. If you go this route, just get yourself a ballast resistor and make sure you put it in series with the wire.
I'd bet that in any event, the electronic module is toast.
Brings back fond memories of my SLEP transistorized ignition that I installed in my car back in 1963. Bet that most of you thought that electronic ignitions were a modern day item.. Not so........ In fact, I believe that I still have most of the components somewhere in the garage..
View the advertisment for this new fangled item here.... Scroll down the page for some other interesting items, including a childs safety harness.......
View the advertisment for this new fangled item here.... Scroll down the page for some other interesting items, including a childs safety harness.......
I picked up a Pertronix Ignitor, yesterday. Did Cadillac come with a ballast resistor? The instructions give three different ways to hook it up. Two with a ballast resistor and one without. It says if it had one factory leave it, but it not wire it start to the coil.
GM didn't use a ballast resistor in most cars after 1962, but since you haven't given full details as to the car, I can only give you a general reply. From about 1963, all GM products used a length of nickel resistance wiring that was bundled with the rest of the wire harness. There are two wires going from the starter to the ignition coil. One feeds 12 volts to the coil when starting, and the other allows only 6 volts to the coil when the engine is running. The 12 volts is to allow for a hotter spark to start the engine, and the 6 volts is so you don't burn out ignition points. If you are having a problem with the ignition points, possibly you have a broken resistance wire, and someone who doesn't understand the electrical system, bypassed it with a straight wire from the constant hot 12 volt terminal on starter to the points. As with almost everything mechanical, you need to understand the theory, before you can trouble shoot and correct problems.
1973 Cadillac with the 472 engine. I believe you are correct that someone bypassed the resistance wire. Should I get a ballast resistor to replace the resistance wire?
yes yes and yes. you have to have the resister wire or you will burn out the points or the solid state replacement. remember insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. if you want I have one I can send you. but do your self a faver and check the wire bundle right by the coil and see if there isn't a wire sticking out with out a end on it. test that one and see if it's a low voltage wire, hot when the switch is one. some one may just have taken it off when they put that replacment jumper wire on. who knowes why peopel do what they do.
A note about the Pertronix units... the Ignitor II is a better module than the Ignitor - and imho well worth the extra $20. Regardless of which one you install, they REQUIRE a full 12 volts to function - exactly the opposite of the unit you had installed prior. To get this unit installed, we're concerned with 3 connections:
Ground: Unlike the current unit, the Pertronix unit is grounded through the breaker plate. When you look inside your distributor, be sure that the jumper wire from the distributor body to the breaker plate is securely connected. Also, when you remove the points, clean the breaker plate where you will be mounting the ignitor so you have a good ground.
Negative: This one is easy... you need to connect the black wire from the ignitor, and ONLY the black wire from the ignitor to the coil negative terminal. Remove any other wire
Positive: Heeeeere we go... You need to do a little bit of wire tracing to see where you're at... For starters, the red wire from the ignitor needs to be connected to the coil positive terminal. You probably already have a wire on the coil positive that goes to the starter solenoid. If you do, that wire can remain without harm. After that, you need a 12v, ignition voltage source. Normally you would bypass the resistance wire to attain this, but I think we have established that this wire is somehow compromised. Get rid of that funky jumper wire for starters. Find out where the switched ignition is on your car - my previous post gave you some ideas for a starting point. When all is said and done, you will have 2 or 3 wires on the coil positive. The ignitor, the starting voltage wire if you kept it, and a 12v ignition feed BEFORE the resistance wire.
Ground: Unlike the current unit, the Pertronix unit is grounded through the breaker plate. When you look inside your distributor, be sure that the jumper wire from the distributor body to the breaker plate is securely connected. Also, when you remove the points, clean the breaker plate where you will be mounting the ignitor so you have a good ground.
Negative: This one is easy... you need to connect the black wire from the ignitor, and ONLY the black wire from the ignitor to the coil negative terminal. Remove any other wire
Positive: Heeeeere we go... You need to do a little bit of wire tracing to see where you're at... For starters, the red wire from the ignitor needs to be connected to the coil positive terminal. You probably already have a wire on the coil positive that goes to the starter solenoid. If you do, that wire can remain without harm. After that, you need a 12v, ignition voltage source. Normally you would bypass the resistance wire to attain this, but I think we have established that this wire is somehow compromised. Get rid of that funky jumper wire for starters. Find out where the switched ignition is on your car - my previous post gave you some ideas for a starting point. When all is said and done, you will have 2 or 3 wires on the coil positive. The ignitor, the starting voltage wire if you kept it, and a 12v ignition feed BEFORE the resistance wire.
Saturday I was going to put on the Pertronix, I was looking at it and it's for a Ford distributor. So I have to take it back and order the right one. While I was under the hood I found the original resistor wire, both pieces 
. One piece goes into the firewall and the other piece is goes to a wire that is connected to the + side of the coil :4_11_9:.
. One piece goes into the firewall and the other piece is goes to a wire that is connected to the + side of the coil :4_11_9:.
I had best open my box and re read the directions. I swear that on the three I have put on gm cars they stated you needed a resistor wire to run the unit.this is the way I did the caddy the olds and the suberban. i figures you would find the resistor wire still in the bundle. why people do what they do I'll never know.
The instructions say if its originally came with a ballast resister do not remove it, but if it didn't you don't need to add one.
I know why the resister wire was cut. A couple years ago when my hearse wouldn't crank, which was a yearly thing. Every time it was the points. I had my hearse at the mechanic's. He told me he turned on the ignition and he saw a wire smoking. So he cut the wire and hooked it to another wire. I had forgotten about this until recently.
I know why the resister wire was cut. A couple years ago when my hearse wouldn't crank, which was a yearly thing. Every time it was the points. I had my hearse at the mechanic's. He told me he turned on the ignition and he saw a wire smoking. So he cut the wire and hooked it to another wire. I had forgotten about this until recently.