A question that "new guys" might find useful....

W

Wesley Hord

As most of you know, I'm still very new to the pro-car hobby, and have yet to purchase my first hobbyhorse. I've been collecting leads, and I have my eyes on a few different possibilities. One is in rougher condition, but the price reflects the work that needs to be done. Another appears to be in excellent condition, and the price seems fair at $2500. The nicer car is a 1990 Fleetwood Brougham-based Superior, white body with a black top. I have pictures for the time being, but it is close enough to home to see very soon.

So, the question - what specifically would you look for in a pro-car (in my case a hearse) if your goal is to purchase one in good condition that doesn't need immediate restoration?

I've bought plenty of cars (as of this moment I've owned 25) but they've all just been regular, every day normal cars. Is there anything specific to pro-cars I should be looking for other than rust?
 
Hi Wesley, welcome! Good question, in a few short words, let me offer my opinion. Any time you can buy a 25 year old car in nice condition for $2500, BUY IT!! For what it is worth, in my opinion, any Brougham from 1990 through 1996 are fabulous cars, both in looks and in their fabulous drive train. You really can't go wrong. Great styling, great running, nice condition and a good price! Good luck with your decision, whatever you decide.
 
Look at how beaten up the vinyl top is and if water has gotten under it. If so, you're going to have problems. And they're not cheap to replace (like the cost of another $2500 professional car from what I understand).
 
After owning many, and having sold about 7 over the years - here's my policy, I don't buy anything anymore "just to have a procar..." I have in mind year models and coach builders of certain eras I like... if you get stuck with it, and it starts having problems - you don't want to end up parking it and not fixing it because you are tired of it or really didn't have it in mind when you ran across it...
I know everyone is different, but for me, I only want to buy what appeals to me...
Steinburg says whatever you buy, you can usually count on atleast $1000 in repairs that need to be done...
 
Kent Dorsey said:
...here's my policy, I don't buy anything anymore "just to have a procar..." I have in mind year models and coach builders of certain eras I like...
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I've made the same mistake "just to have" a car of ANY kind. I had always wanted a GM g-body car from the early 80's (Bonneville, Monte Carlo, Grand Prix, Malibu) and the one I bought was a disaster. In the hearse world, I'm looking for a car from 1984 - 1993, preferably having started life as a Cadillac but other makes are okay. I don't have a specific coachbuilder in line, though so far I think I like Miller-Meter cars of this era the best. Thankfully in the pro-car world, what I really want and what I can afford live in the same reality. I don't expect perfection, but I hope to get something that is driveable.
 
haven't bought one of those clean cars yet we haven't spend at least a grand on. it went out of use for a reason or hasn't been used for a reason. but location and the ability to look it over drive it home are worth a couple grand right there. other then that it no different than any other used car. don't get one that is a major fiseruper unless you have a firm plan on how you are going to fix her up. the hardest thing to sell is a car you don't like. the next is a pro car you do.
 
I'm looking for a car from 1984 - 1993

but I hope to get something that is driveable.
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Starting in 90-93 the engine in the RWD chassis is TBI throttle body injection . It is pretty bullet proof, anything before that has a feed back carburetor which can be a problem if you can not find the right person to work on it. I do not have a lot of experience on the FWD.s platforms from that era but there are also some good FWD platforms.
 
The 90 to 93 is the safest bet. On the 90 to 92 make sure you get the 5.7 (350) engine the 305 is not as powerful. They also came with an Olds engine not as good gas mileage and not as quick. The 5.7 was the cop car engine and the 700R-4 transmission is very reliable. Most of the mechanical parts are the same as the Caprice and Roadmaster of the same years so they are readily available in the yards. The 94 to 96 Cars had the Corvette LT-1 and the 4L60 Transmission Both are good and very quick. They just don't have the same longevity as the earlier ones. The LT-1 has water pump and distributer issues. The 4L60 is not as strong as the 700R-4 perhaps due to to the higher Power of the LT-4.
 
I can't agree more with kent. Get what you want and not the first thing you see just because you're excited about it. I've bought a car because it was a good deal and I was happier with the more beat up one I wanted.

I have to disagree on the longevity issue with the 94-96s. I prefer 94-96 GM platform. It's your best bet. I like the port fuel injection of the LT1 compared to a throttle body. When you step on the gas, it's more instant and takes off like there is no tomorrow. I was amazed the first time I drove one. There has been times I didn't even punch the gas pedal and burned rubber. Everyone has their own opinion but I can speak because I have owned at least 5 or more and put on a ton of miles. I've driven mine across country, for daily use ( I don't own a normal car), even in the salty sandy nasty winter although I do designate one for winter use. All of my LT1 cars have come from the same source which is a livery service here in Minnesota. The one car I bought had 345k on it when it was retired from service. I parked it with 384k. That car came with the service records which dated back to the days when it had about 50k and the heads never even had to be redone. Never rebuilt. I never even had to add any oil til it needed to be changed. No smoke. Ran like a swiss watch. In fact all of my 95s have ran that good. Only reason I parted it out was because the mice ruined the interior and I could not get rid of the odor. Besides that car, all the others are in the 200-300k range. Other PCS guys can back that too because they've seen the odometers on my cars. My 95 M+M has 285k on it and it still gets 20-25mpg and takes off like a bat out of hell. These cars go forever! Only kicker with the 94-96 cars is that the transmission lifespan is around 100k miles. Some outlive that. Hit or miss. I've noticed that when I look at the service records of the cars I own. I really want a 96 model because it has OBDII which is a newer more modern computer system that stores more codes which really simplifies diagnosing problems. The other plus is that they were a simple enough car yet modern enoughto get great gas mileage and performance. They're easy to work on. Even the heater core is an easy swap.

In regards to coachbuilders. Most of my mid 90s cars have been CCE cars ( Eureka & Miller-Meteor ). Most common problems with these are usually electrical (failing interior lights, etc.) and breaking bondo on the side coachbuilt doors. Side windows tilting to one side and letting air and water come in the car because its held up with a T shaped support. Sometimes the coachbuilt doors will not open either. Otherwise, they've always been pretty good. I would find an S&S or Superior. Seems like they were a very well built car and have great styling that flows well with the original platform. A lot of times, S&S-Superior would widen the back end which looks much better on a hearse. Competitors would leave it skinny so they wouldn't have to widen the back bumper. If you look at a stock Caddy, the back end slopes back in for aerodynamics. My 384K mile car was an S&S. Also in comparison to others, the S&S had a completely boxed in frame where it was stretched. Inside, the framework is laid out very well. CCE did barely anything behind the fiberglass. I've pulled the panels as I do my own work. S&S usually was more custom also. CCE would leave the stock roof over the cab where S&S would custom make a headliner and use commercial glass. Only other coachbuilder that I would stand tall with from the era is Eagle. They are very strong and they really stood behind their product to make it bulletproof. They would also beef them up even more the an ( S&S-Superior ).
I parted an Eagle at the salvage yard once and noticed that they soundproofed/insulated them where the competitors did not and I also noticed they used galvanized steel in rust prone areas. This car had taken a severely hard hit in the front end and everything held up very well considering how hard the impact was. A semi spun out and crossed the median and the hearse hit him head on.
Other coachbuilders from the mid 90's. I've never owned any Krystals or Federals. I have heard they are about the bottom of the barrel in regards to craftsmanship. They both do have coachlights which is awesome. One thing I do have to say about the Krystals though is that they had killer interiors. They used nicer looking fabric and the design was very appealing to the eye but the body lines were kinda boring. Krystals even had electric partitions which extremely rare in a hearse. I friend of mine has a 95 Krystal and although it's pretty to look at, you can push on the partition and it is super wobbly and poorly installed. The other neat feature I liked was that there is a switch up front to turn on the interior lights in the rear. They all have their ups and downs however you look at it but when ever you get a bastardized car, there is always gonna be issues. They are not perfect right from the beginning. It's not as well built at a stock Fleetwood Brougham. Good luck hearse hunting! Hope this helps...........
 
Wesley Hord said:
I've made the same mistake "just to have" a car of ANY kind. I had always wanted a GM g-body car from the early 80's (Bonneville, Monte Carlo, Grand Prix, Malibu) and the one I bought was a disaster. In the hearse world, I'm looking for a car from 1984 - 1993, preferably having started life as a Cadillac but other makes are okay. I don't have a specific coachbuilder in line, though so far I think I like Miller-Meter cars of this era the best. Thankfully in the pro-car world, what I really want and what I can afford live in the same reality. I don't expect perfection, but I hope to get something that is driveable.
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Okay Wesley, but what you need to investigate also is engine issues. You are saying 1984-1993, but the body styles of 1980-1984 have very little change, yet my memory is, and someone here can clear it up better, is that 83 and 84 had engine issues... possibly 82, I can't remember. Some of the RWD 87-89's had a reputation of weak engines I believe...
 
Kent Dorsey said:
Okay Wesley, but what you need to investigate also is engine issues. You are saying 1984-1993, but the body styles of 1980-1984 have very little change, yet my memory is, and someone here can clear it up better, is that 83 and 84 had engine issues... possibly 82, I can't remember. Some of the RWD 87-89's had a reputation of weak engines I believe...
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the 4.1 Cadillac engines did have a cooling problem because of the Aluminum block and cast-iron heads ! but if looked after they ran good. My 87 Eureka front-wheel drive runs good, I did have a cooling issue last year but that was my own fault. the key with the 4.1 was to change the coolent every two years and not overheat them I have only 50,000 kms on mine but I know guys with a ton of miles on them with no issues.
 
All of my coaches have been Superiors. Right now I'm running a '94 with 145k on the odometer. I've driven it from Kansas to Connecticut to Maine. I'll be driving it from Maine to Mississippi at the end of February then on back to Kansas a few short days later. I have absolutely no doubts that it will make it with little trouble if any at all. I say that because it's 145k miles on it and I haven't had to do anything major other than oil and plug changes. She's a great car and would love to have another some day. Once it's back in my garage, I will be reconditioning her.
 
Lots of good responses here. I really do appreciate all of the advice and pointers!

One of the primary reasons I want to find a car from 1984-1993 is budget. I can easily find something within my budget. The other is gas mileage, as I intend to drive this vehicle daily. I already know that NO PRO-CAR is going to get Geo Metro gas mileage, but a GM 305, 307, or 350 car is going to get better mileage than a GM 500 or 472 or the other monsters. And a Ford 302 is going to get better mileage than those biggies too. Lastly, reliability is going to be a major factor in my decision. I'd rather have a reliable junker than a beautiful lawn ornament, and buying a car in this age range should get me there. I'd love to find a great deal on an LT1 car, but they aren't (typically) in my price range -unless somebody here wants to part with one on the cheap, pm me- and they're expensive to tune up, what with the $100 distributor cap.

I still have some decisions to make, and all of your input and advice is welcome, and VERY appreciated! Hopefully I'll be able to pull the trigger pretty soon... but I do want to buy the right car for me, even if it means looking a little longer.

Anybody who owns or have owned a 307 car know of anything specific about them other than them not being especially powerful? Anything they are praised for or notorious for? Four of the cars on my maybe list are 307 cars.
 
My advice to you Wealey is not too over think this thing, find one that you like the looks of and have low miles on it then just jump in.....anything you buy will have issues. the key is maintenance ....if it hasn't been abused like the 'red-headed step child" go for it and have fun.
 
You can find LT1 cars in the $2500-$3500 range. You just have to look for them. Its amazing how much you can talk a person down on price. Just throw it out there and see if it sticks. What a person is asking doesn't mean thats what they are selling for. Some people will take offense to it but you would be surprised at how many people bite on it. With pro-cars, it's tough for people to figure a value because you really can't look up a value. You will find that they're either way overpriced or way under priced. Wouldn't hurt to call around to funeral homes and see what they got lying around. Sometimes you get a lead or two. Just make sure you talk to the manager or owner. This will go further. Try and find out where the closest livery service is ( provider of hearse service to funeral homes when they don't want to own their own car ). Right now would be perfect timing to get a coach thats long distance with gas prices as low as they are. I've put on close to 450 miles on a tank of gas one time. That was in my 95 M+M with over 250k at that point highway miles of course. I really wouldn't have any doubts about traveling in those cars.
Out of all the pro-cars I've owned, LT1 cars have been the most trouble free. I've never had distributor issues although I did change the cap on one once when I had the water pump off because it was easy enough at that point. That is the only job that can be a bitch if you were doing just that alone. I've only had to replace one water pump and if you knock an engine for that, then you really are not gonna have much luck with any engine because there are things that just wear out over time. I do have to say, those engines build up a lot of gunk in the cooling system though and should be flushed. The overflow needs to be removed and cleaned out outside of the car. There are baffles inside that hold a lot of crud. I've had several that looked like a coffee pot. Makes a huge difference when you do this. Someone from down south probably wouldn't notice difference in heat because they don't see the extreme cold like we do. When you see extreme cold temps (-30f etc.) you will notice a car not pumping the heat like it should. Another common thing that happens with these that is a simple fix is that the IAC ( idle air control ) gets gummed up with carbon. Thats why a lot of times they will kinda stumble and sputter at a stop light. I've found that it's not like maintaining a carbureted car. They require little maintenance. Just make sure you put good parts in the car when you repair it. Keep the filters clean and fluids changed regularly. Maintenance is the factor to longevity. A friend of mine that has been a mechanic most of his life taught me to get AC/Delco if it a GM. If it's Ford, get motorcraft. I don't know why but it just performs better and lasts a million times longer. You get what you pay for. Not saying this for originality reasons. Just for longevity and performance. I wasted a lot of time in the past using budget parts back in high school. One other plus with these era cars, parts are super cheap compared to the oldies.

Aside from the LT1 cars. I really doubt you would have many issues with anything 89-93. Seems like most of the issues that were a problem in the 1980's cars were resolved by this point. They're just not gonna be the beast of an engine that the LT1 is. The tranny is the only kicker if you ask me. It still is no race car. There is still the weight factor but it is very impressive for a pro-car. You can pass up other cars like nothing. I can speak because I've owned a pro-car from pretty much every decade from the 1950's through the 90s. 80's being a void. Never owned an 80's hearse although I've driven several and have known multiple people that do own them.

Hearses are fun to own and very practical. It's like owning a pickup with a topper. Plenty of room to haul stuff. Plus, the newer ones have cruise control. If you ask anybody thats into pro-cars, prior to the 1980s that is a rarity. You would be excited if the car had a tilt column and a radio. Only downside is that you will hear the same questions and comments repeatedly. The hunt should be fun. I really doubt you will be disappointed with much of any car from the early to mid 90's.
 
Forgot to mention. Wesley, Going back to your original question. When I shop around and look at a coach, the first 2 things I look at is the interior and glass. To me, that is the most important. Inspect the glass really well! If you have a cracked window, this can really rape your wallet to no end. And depending on what it is, some can be impossible to find a replacement. Windshields are usually pretty universal between pro-cars. Side glass and back is coachbuilder specific. Some coachbuilders used standard side driver and passenger glass in the 90's. S&S did make their own windshields in the 1990s and those are the only ones that are specific that I know of ( don't quote me though ). This really screwed me with my 94 S&S. Don't be fooled by the short height. It has a different shape and curve. I've compared and when I contacted Accubuilt, they said it was an S&S exclusive. Usually windshilds were supplied with the chassis (for commercial chassis cars which are roughly 84 and earlier specifically GM). Maybe someone else here can chime in about the glass on the 1980s coaches. And when you own the car, get glass coverage!!! This will save you a lot of money and headache. State Farm has a plan called comprehensive. It's basically liability w/ glass coverage. It's way cheaper than full coverage. Well worth it! They are a hearse friendly insurance company. A lot of other companies will feed you a bunch of crap saying it's a commercial vehicle even though you're not using it for commercial purposes. Not saying they won't insure you but they will charge you up the rear end.

Look at trim and anything coach specific. If there is any damage or missing pieces, this will come back to haunt you. Those parts are very hard to find and specific to that coachbuilder! Look it over well and see what is the same on a standard car that the conversion was built on. If it's replaceable, no big deal. These are things that slip past most people when buying their first pro-car. Again, good luck!
 
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