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Old 02-21-2019, 06:42 PM
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Nicholas Studer Nicholas Studer is offline
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Default Radio Mystery - USAF Plant 3 1969 Stoner-Chevrolet

The radio setup from my 1969 Stoner-Chevrolet "Crash Wagon" (http://www.professionalcarsociety.or...ad.php?t=21907) was apparently removed in 1993 when the plant shut down. The only remaining component of unknown installation is the black plastic GE fuse block holder mounted in the engine bay. It is for this reason, I suspect a GE product was installed at least at some point. The car is from late 1969, and was apparently transferred from Huntington Beach to Tulsa sometime in the 1970s. The radio could and probably has been changed out several times - making this harder. I don't want to install any 1980s+ equipment. I am aiming to get what fits (I am not going to drill any new holes) and is most likely correct to its early service in Tulsa.

I consider myself rather fascile with the radio options common to our vehicles from 1950-1980, but I'm rather stumped. I've consulted Kevin O'Connell as well, and we're both still a bit confused. Perhaps someone will see something we didn't. There are no records from AF Plant 3 apparently left, and while I reached out to the M-D Retiree's Association, Tulsa FD Museum, and various places on Facebook this has yet to bear too much fruit. Steve Lichtman tells me EMSA and TFD used separate GE and Motorola systems, and neither could talk to M-D Fire Dept. I sure wish Steve Loftin had photographed the interior when he photographed this car in service.

1. There are two antennas on the roof, both fairly standard Antenna Specialists VHF antennas with one at approx. 25", the other 18". Three antenna cables correspond and run down the headliner down the passenger B-pillar. A third antenna cable runs from "nowhere" down to the floor, I suspect this is a remnant of laziness during a likely re-install from Huntington beach to Tulsa. All cables have the length to run along the console to enter it.

2. There is no evidence of a radio being mounted behind the passenger seat on the divider or floor. I even got underneath with a flashlight to be sure.

3. The only spot where holes are present is in the console compartment. This makes best sense. There are multiple sets of holes. I've attached an overhead photo from the passenger seat showing the rear-ward compartment to left and forward portion (with switches, etc.) to the right. I believe the small set of holes on the driver's side wall are for a now-missing mic holder. They seem to have vacillated about this at various points during its service life, and there are five separate spots a mic holder appears to have been placed. Two remain present - one on the dash and this one on the side which currently holes the PA-15 mic. A Motorola "hang-up box" fits some empty holes drilled into the "POSITIVELY NO SMOKING" decal on the console (last photo) - but I've left it off for now pending radio ID.

4. The large compartment to the left is where I suspect the radio drawer would have gone. There are three holes approx. 13" fron the absolute rear of the compartment. They are four inches apart for a total of 8 inches across GE MASTR II as well as Motorola MOTRAC, MICOR, and MOCOM 70 radio drawers do not fit, let alone align with the holes. I do not have any other radio drawers in my possession to test. However, MASTR Professional/Royal Professional is 19" long and appears to be too long to install.

5. There are three clear sets of holes that I would suspect go to speaker, and/or control head (if they did not install a front/dash-mount model). Two sets are shown in the right side of the overhead photo that are two central holes of approx. 2.5" center-to-center with four indentations in the wood surrounding that represent tight, downward pressure over time. The set to the left is also 2.5", but does not have the surrounding indentation.
a. This does appear to match up with GE MASTR II/MASTR Executive II and Motorola MICOR speaker brackets, but these do not have anything that would create the indentations present. I do not have any Motorola MOTRAC/MOCOM 70 speaker brackets spare to test, but they are a flat metal base that wouldn't do that either even if they did fit.
b. GE MASTR II and Executive II control head brackets do not seem to match up to any of the three sets of holes. A MOTRAC/MOCOM 70 control head bracket does appears to match, however - this also wouldn't account for the four indentations seen on the front two sets.

6. There's three holes that appear to be on a diagonal on the passenger side. Perhaps this was used to hold down the cables? Even the laziest install probably wouldn't put things at an angle, but you never know.

It gets to be a lot of permutations of radio options when you look at all the "economy" products that were possibly used as well. M-D was a big company, and it's interesting two antennas were on the roof. There could even have been two radios at the same time. My best guess at this point is MASTR Executive, shown at http://www.repeater-builder.com/ge/l.../lbi-4325b.pdf and http://www.wb6nvh.com/GE/GEhist2.htm as this unit is 12.25 to 12.50 inches long (depending on trunk/front mount) and dates 1965-1973. I have been unable to turn one up to at least test. Thoughts appreciated.
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File Type: jpg 2018-11-24 00.06.20.jpg (184.0 KB, 219 views)
File Type: jpg 2019-01-05 16.23.00.jpg (190.4 KB, 219 views)

Last edited by Nicholas Studer; 02-21-2019 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 02-21-2019, 07:29 PM
Jacob M. Fournier Jacob M. Fournier is offline
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The GE fuse block is identical to the one in my '67, which had a MASTR Pro, however, I don't know if the same fuse block was used with the later MASTR II. I can measure the mounting bracket for my MASTR over the weekend and see what the measurements are.
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1967 S & S Cadillac Professional High Body ambulance (Billings, MT Ambulance Service)
1976 S & S Cadillac Professional High Body ambulance (Bloomsburg, PA Volunteer Ambulance Association)
1976 S & S Cadillac Professional High Body ambulance (Roxbury, NJ Chemical Engine Co. #2)
1947 A. J. Miller Cadillac Duplex combination
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Old 02-21-2019, 07:31 PM
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Tim Prieur Tim Prieur is offline
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Nic, you have really done your homework!! What a great jig saw question. I look forward to more intelligent input than I can provide...so I won't.
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Old 02-22-2019, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob M. Fournier View Post
The GE fuse block is identical to the one in my '67, which had a MASTR Pro, however, I don't know if the same fuse block was used with the later MASTR II. I can measure the mounting bracket for my MASTR over the weekend and see what the measurements are.
Appreciate it Sir, but MASTR Professional and Royal Professional were top-of-the-line radios for GE, contemporary to the MOTRAC with Motorola. They're too long for the space I have to work with.

Kevin O'Connell tells me he believes the GE products of the day were sold on the basis of quality, and Motorola on the basis of price. It makes sense an S&S-Cadillac would have one. The MASTR Executive was the more "economy" model. But, apparently still a very high-quality radio apparently. Both used the black box. MASTR II and MASTR Executive II is a little new for my vehicle, but an Executive II seems like it would fit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Prieur View Post
Nic, you have really done your homework!! What a great jig saw question. I look forward to more intelligent input than I can provide...so I won't.
Thank you Tim, the homework and mysteries are what make this fun and cost little until you figure out some piece of unobtainium is what you're looking for! The sad part for me is the rapidly vanishing knowledge base. Not that I expect a hoarde of radio men here - but even the paper records to consult on a lot of topics are often not scanned. Thankfully, a lot of GE and Motorola documents have been thanks to the HAM folks that tear this equipment apart to make repeaters and the like.

Here's some more homework paying off. I dug through the MASTR Professional's Installation Manual, which I purchased years ago on eBay for potential reference. Turns out they specified metal cable ties to hold down the control cable - looks like I've solved what the "diagonal" row of single holes was...
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File Type: jpg 2019-02-22 19.02.33.jpg (189.8 KB, 175 views)
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Old 02-23-2019, 03:20 AM
Walter Suiter Walter Suiter is offline
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Just wondering based on the mention of a long (24") antenna and aircraft plant, there is the possibility an AM aircraft radio could have been in the car for com with tower if the car entered a flight area.

If you measure the long whip you can get an idea of the frequency it operated at. 17 5/8" matches pretty close to 152mhz.

The GE fuseblock and mic hanger were common for years to GE where Progress was more important than communication. Those fuse blocks were one of the best ways to convert a 60 watt transmitter to 10 watts known to mankind in an area where roadsalt was used. Both were common to Execline and Masterexecline drawers.

There was also the beloved plug together TPL from GE, that came with a lecture TPL stood for Transistorized Prog Line, NOT Toilet Paper line.
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Old 02-24-2019, 11:02 PM
Jacob M. Fournier Jacob M. Fournier is offline
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I think the two screw holes surrounded by the four dimples are from the bracket to hold a Big Beam flashlight.
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1976 S & S Cadillac Professional High Body ambulance (Bloomsburg, PA Volunteer Ambulance Association)
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1947 A. J. Miller Cadillac Duplex combination
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Old 02-25-2019, 12:50 AM
Walter Suiter Walter Suiter is offline
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That bracket would definitely hold my 211 Big Beam, roughly 5 5/8 long and 2 7/8 wide.
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Old 02-25-2019, 10:55 AM
Peter Grave Peter Grave is offline
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My thoughts on radios. Having had two businesses that used two way radio and buying used government equipment since 1963 I can speak to two way radios. Fist it is common place to move radio equipment from unit to unit as the vehicles are upgraded. Radio equipment is upgraded on an as needed basis so many radios are in service through several vehicles. That said the company that had your rig could very easily have moved the equipment from the unit it replaced to your rig. As this was a company owned vehicle not government owned it would be a natural thing to move the radio equipment from old to new cheaper and better management as the equipment had little use. Thus almost any of GEs prolific line of two ways of the era would be correct and the measurements and specs you list could cover many GE products. I have a 43 foot moving van trailer filled with two way radio equipment form our county, the City of Philadelphia, and other users. Much of it GE and Motorola some Dumont. I even have our countys base two way system from the 50s. I would be happy to ship you as much of a GE mobile you want free just pay the shipping.
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Old 02-25-2019, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Suiter View Post
Just wondering based on the mention of a long (24") antenna and aircraft plant, there is the possibility an AM aircraft radio could have been in the car for com with tower if the car entered a flight area.

If you measure the long whip you can get an idea of the frequency it operated at. 17 5/8" matches pretty close to 152mhz.

The GE fuseblock and mic hanger were common for years to GE where Progress was more important than communication. Those fuse blocks were one of the best ways to convert a 60 watt transmitter to 10 watts known to mankind in an area where roadsalt was used. Both were common to Execline and Masterexecline drawers.

There was also the beloved plug together TPL from GE, that came with a lecture TPL stood for Transistorized Prog Line, NOT Toilet Paper line.
Height of the tallest antenna is 25 1/4", the shorter one 18 1/4". It's certainly possible an ATC radio was present.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob M. Fournier View Post
I think the two screw holes surrounded by the four dimples are from the bracket to hold a Big Beam flashlight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Suiter View Post
That bracket would definitely hold my 211 Big Beam, roughly 5 5/8 long and 2 7/8 wide.
That is an awesome thought! "Big Beam" had their own, proprietary bracket, shown in attached ad picture. I eventually found out two of these filled the holes on the shelf of my 1963 Pinner-Chrysler. However, I just checked and the holes are too close together for the spare I have. There are also no dimples on the bottom of these, just a flat base. I also checked with a spare Koehler Wheat Lamp I had - also doesn't match.

It looks from your photo that you may have found an unexpected winner for those two sets of holes there. What you pictured is the bracket for what could be several options of "clamp-on" lights, which just attached to the top of a lantern battery. Ray-O-Vac Sportsman was one example. There wasn't as much worry about scraping up the battery sides with such a friction assembly, since the battery is disposable. A few years ago, there were a few on eBay for sale - but sadly the cupboard appears bare at the moment. Hopefully one will turn up for me to test. It would make a lot of sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Grave View Post
My thoughts on radios. Having had two businesses that used two way radio and buying used government equipment since 1963 I can speak to two way radios. Fist it is common place to move radio equipment from unit to unit as the vehicles are upgraded. Radio equipment is upgraded on an as needed basis so many radios are in service through several vehicles. That said the company that had your rig could very easily have moved the equipment from the unit it replaced to your rig. As this was a company owned vehicle not government owned it would be a natural thing to move the radio equipment from old to new cheaper and better management as the equipment had little use. Thus almost any of GEs prolific line of two ways of the era would be correct and the measurements and specs you list could cover many GE products. I have a 43 foot moving van trailer filled with two way radio equipment form our county, the City of Philadelphia, and other users. Much of it GE and Motorola some Dumont. I even have our countys base two way system from the 50s. I would be happy to ship you as much of a GE mobile you want free just pay the shipping.
I'll message you Peter, that's very kind of you! While earlier radios (Accent, Pacer, TPL shown at http://www.wb6nvh.com/GE/GEhist2.htm) might fit - I don't have dimensions and the photos seemed to show fairly large drawers. I figured also that M-D being a large corporation, and MASTR Executive coming out in 1965 might have gone that route by 1970s when the car arrived.
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Last edited by Nicholas Studer; 02-25-2019 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 02-25-2019, 11:27 PM
Walter Suiter Walter Suiter is offline
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All right, fess up right now, how did you get the picture of my 211.
That spring setup must have launched a few handlights.

You tell the truth and I'll look around for the clamp on I have stashed someplace. From memory clamp ons fit the fat battery that was almost a cube. Clamp on being different from the post mount Ray-O-Vac produced millions of in a similar size to Big Beam 211.

Re the long antenna, measurement needs to be of just the whip. I did some chart reading and 21" of whip puts the radio around 120mhz which is oddly the low end of AM aircraft frequencies.
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